Author Topic: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together  (Read 9083 times)

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2015, 11:06:45 PM »
   At first it works well. But after a couple of tensions and de-tensioning the pen would twist even more than 45 degrees.

  You have NOT tied what I had shown : I do not link two "open", but two "closed" bights, the eyes of two small loops.
  At the Hugo bend, the "toggle" becomes almost parallel to the axis of the bend - and yet it works fine ! :)
  As I said, in this solution the angle does not matter. Even if the toggle is almost parallel to the ends, it can not slip out of its casting.
  Tie two small fixed whichever loops, and link them as I show.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 10:18:45 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Z

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2015, 01:49:32 AM »
I'll be happy if more suggestion is to be posted in this thread. If there is better toggle solution out there I'll be more than happy to learn.

Did you try Sweeney's solution above (Constrictor hitch with the follow through starting at the working end)?
If you're reading this, it's too late.

Groundline

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2015, 04:11:19 AM »
A toggle is by its design temporary and also not exactly safe for slack or unattended loads. Be that as it may it has been used as long as cordage to allow a quick, clean and safely repeatable release of load.

One end is often formed with a knob to allow removal in only one direction, a lanyard  hitched to the standing lines prevents removal.
 
Sticking the bitter end of a line is not a substitute.

Don't look at the Sun.

Z

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2015, 05:32:55 AM »
A toggle is by its design temporary and also not exactly safe for slack or unattended loads. Be that as it may it has been used as long as cordage to allow a quick, clean and safely repeatable release of load.

One end is often formed with a knob to allow removal in only one direction, a lanyard  hitched to the standing lines prevents removal.
 
Sticking the bitter end of a line is not a substitute.



It looks like ABOK 1521-1524 are the only relevant toggles for purpose of the original post. Of those, it looks like ABOK 1521 and 1523 are the only toggles that will release the ropes when it is removed.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 06:37:55 AM by Z »
If you're reading this, it's too late.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2015, 06:01:44 AM »
   I do understand the need for the One and Only God, but not the need for the One and Only Toggle, I am afraid ! :) ( And why this should be in the Bible ( the ABoK ), is yet another mystery to me...)

   In all those toggle solutions, if it turns out that a sleek toggle is not sleek enough, and it can not be pulled out of the two tensioned opposed loops easily, I think that an auger ( a fighting, or even a simple long screw ) would do the job : it would be easier to unscrew it by hand, until the tensioned eyes of the loops, the one after the other, fall out of its end.
This is not a knot.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2015, 07:59:48 AM »
   Any pair of  fixed single or double loops ( with directly "communicating" bights/eyes ) can do the job - and even pairs of "adjustable" loops / nooses, although they will grip the toggle more forcefully, and we do not want that for an easy releasing. We can fold the eye of the single loop, to form a locked/fixed Cow/Girth hitch with two eyes, or use the two eyes of the double loop, it does nt matter much.
   What may matter, and it is interesting, is the angle between the axis of the toggle and the bend. If the four eyes are arranged on the toggle in an alternating order ( ABAB ), this angle will be closer to 45 degrees ( oblique angle ) than to 90 degrees ( right angle ), which will be the corresponding angle if the eyes are arranged in a symmetric order ( ABBA ). Both "Toggle bends" ( :) ) are safe, but I do not know from which one we can pull the toggle out more easily, and release it, while it is still under loading. 
   ( Having said that, I still believe that the "simpler" solution shown in Reply#12, where this angle is also close to 45 degrees, is more neat, and preferable ).
This is not a knot.

Groundline

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2015, 03:24:15 PM »
A toggle is not a lock, it is a quick release.
Don't look at the Sun.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2015, 04:25:47 PM »
  A toggle is by its design temporary, and also not exactly safe for slack or unattended loads.

  A toggle is not a lock, it is a quick release.

  I like those pompous, grandiose statements - they make me realize how wrong one can be...
  Toggles, pins, pivots, rivets, dowels, shafts, etc., utilizing the resistance of solid materials to shear forces, have been used in zillions of machines, since time immemorial - but who knows ? Perhaps it is time to regulate their use - or even to t a x them ! :) :)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 04:38:24 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Z

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2015, 05:01:42 PM »
A toggle is not a lock, it is a quick release.

However, as I indicated above, most of the relevant toggles in the ABOK page you posted are not quick releases.  Specifically, ABOK 1522 and 1524 are not quick releases.  I'm thinking the toggles are there to prevent a jam and to allow the knot to be untied easily.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 06:38:29 AM by Z »
If you're reading this, it's too late.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2015, 05:34:06 PM »
   A Zeppelin... cannt be released quickly under tension. I can't think of a bend which can .

   The humble bowline bend ( ABoK#1455 ) is the first that comes to my mind - but one can think of many more, based either on eyeknots that do not jam ( like the bowline ), or on interlinked  "exploding" hitches.
This is not a knot.

Z

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2015, 06:31:24 AM »
I'm not sure what the purpose of ABOK 1522 is. It doesn't hold as a bend in my field testing.
If you're reading this, it's too late.

[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Re: rope toggle variant
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2015, 09:12:53 AM »
Thank you - toggle it was.

Doesn't have a norse word for that, it would simply be "ropes joined with safety pin" directly translated.

I believe that the norse word should be "ters" or "knevel". https://snl.no/ters https://snl.no/knevel
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 09:21:54 AM by Inkanyezi »
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2015, 05:32:52 PM »
A very common way of attaching an eye to a ring is to pass it through the ring and turn it back over itself to straddle the standing part with the end of the eye, pushing a toggle in. This is often seen here in Stockholm, and of course the same method could be used to attach to another eye.
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3903
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2015, 06:08:13 AM »
..., and of course the same method could be used to attach to another eye.
Ha, I've played around with many variations on this theme
vis-a-vis joining eyes (which I might think would be common
enough a need!?) with a 3rd rope --which effects the
toggling, holds secure, but the structure doesn't jam (the
tails of this soft toggle can be tied off with strangles
or <your favorite end-2-end knot>, as they lie beyond
any in-line tension upon the toggling body.

With an eye knot making the eye, such eye-2-eye joining
could be anticipated by having a long eye tail which would
do the toggling (so, no 3rd rope).

In the example you show, given adequately ample eye
--for one needs to make a bight and work with it--,
form a bight in one side of the *returning* eye part
and take it into the position of the board --initially--
and then turn around the opposite side of this
"returning" eye part, and up between the "going
out" legs of the eye (which will pinch this side-bight
tip).  --seems to do okay in quick play w/small rope.
(I initially tried just tying a slip knot in the eye
side-bight, but I'm not confident in the stability of
that over time (if not sooner!).)

Such "soft" toggling with a 3rd rope does look to be
a decent way of joining eyes.  Is it in fact a task done
much?  --and done with perhaps hard, metal link
(to which the softness of rope would be much preferred)?!


--dl*
====

Z

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2015, 08:01:42 PM »
A very common way of attaching an eye to a ring is to pass it through the ring and turn it back over itself to straddle the standing part with the end of the eye, pushing a toggle in. This is often seen here in Stockholm, and of course the same method could be used to attach to another eye.

That's a slick trick. All these years of studying, that simple contraption has not been in my knot vocabulary until now.
If you're reading this, it's too late.