Author Topic: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together  (Read 9084 times)

Knutern

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Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« on: August 30, 2015, 02:52:38 AM »
This is how I would have done it if I need to use a release pin to keep two ropes together. Images in small scale as you can see.

My question is - what is the correct terminology for this? When I search for "rope release pin" on internet, I just get a whole bounch pictures of wire hooks and other gear for heavy lift (made of metal). So I figured that is not the correct term for this use.

Anyways - I let show how I prefer to "tye" it.

Be aware this is not a safe way to tye two roes together!
I'm aiming for knots that is secure, AND that is easy to untie.

Groundline

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2015, 03:02:01 AM »
You are useing a toggle.
Don't look at the Sun.

xarax

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2015, 08:14:33 AM »
...this is not a safe way to tye two ropes together!

   If you use the Tail Ends instead of the toggle/pin, it becomes.
   This is how a genuine Zeppelin-like knot works : like a rope-made hinge, where the pair of tails play the role of the pin ( note : a genuine Zeppelin-like knot- not the fake, so-called "Zeppelin loop" which is advertised /promoted/sold for commercial reasons...)
   See one, based on two interlinked slipped overhand knots :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3716.msg21527#msg21527
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 08:23:19 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Knutern

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rope toggle variant
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 10:12:23 AM »
Thank you - toggle it was.

Doesn't have a norse word for that, it would simply be "ropes joined with safety pin" directly translated.

Other thing - when searcing on web for "toggle rope", I can only find images of the simple variant, often where the toggle is shaped differently than just a pin, so that the toggle won't just fall of in case of sudden slack.
I'm aiming for knots that is secure, AND that is easy to untie.

Z

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2015, 03:19:21 PM »
There has got to be a more elegant way without loops. That's basically 4 knots plus the toggle.

The pen (toggle) is kind of like a bar anchor. You should be able to tie some sort of anchor hitch on each rope (like a Buntline, Timber, Roundturns, etc.). Arrange the hitches in such a way that they provide a balanced tension.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 03:38:13 PM by Z »
If you're reading this, it's too late.

Sweeney

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2015, 05:33:30 PM »
The idea of 2 hitches appeals so I tried a couple of ideas. The best so far is to tie a constrictor around the toggle with one rope then starting at the working end of the first rope follow round the first constrictor with the second rope in the opposite direction. This brings the standing parts of both ropes very close together so there is very little if any tendency of the toggle to twist allowing the ropes to slide off. Slide the ropes off the toggle and the knots disappear.

Barry

xarax

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2015, 05:40:45 PM »
This brings the standing parts of both ropes very close together so there is very little if any tendency of the toggle to twist

  And you needed two Constrictors ( ! ! ) to achieve that ? ?
  Have a ( fresh ) look at a Zeppelin bend.
This is not a knot.

Sweeney

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2015, 05:55:34 PM »
This brings the standing parts of both ropes very close together so there is very little if any tendency of the toggle to twist

  And you needed two Constrictors ( ! ! ) to achieve that ? ?
  Have a ( fresh ) look at a Zeppelin bend.

The OP implied that a toggle was to be used not a bend - this might occur where the ropes need to be separated quickly whilst under tension for example where even a slipped bend might not work. A zeppelin whilst a superb bend cannt be released quickly under tension I can't think of a bend which can).

xarax

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2015, 06:08:12 PM »
   I find it amusing that most people misunderstand almost anything I say so much - while they believe they understand everything else.
   I did not suggest to replace the OP s mechanism with a Zeppelin bend ! ! I said that, in the Zeppelin bend, we have the same thing you described in your reply, and I quoted : two Standing Ends close to each other, so there is little tendency of the toggle to twist. Meaning that you can achieve the same thing, without having to tie two Constrictors. If you had ever tied the knot I had posted in this thread ( and for the n-th time in this Forum ), you would had understood what I said...
This is not a knot.

Sweeney

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 06:49:37 PM »
   I find it amusing that most people misunderstand almost anything I say so much - while they believe they understand everything else.
   I did not suggest to replace the OP s mechanism with a Zeppelin bend ! ! I said that, in the Zeppelin bend, we have the same thing you described in your reply, and I quoted : two Standing Ends close to each other, so there is little tendency of the toggle to twist. Meaning that you can achieve the same thing, without having to tie two Constrictors. If you had ever tied the knot I had posted in this thread ( and for the n-th time in this Forum ), you would had understood what I said...

At reply #2 is an example of a rope toggle. I am concerned with a separate (wood, metal or perhaps plastic) toggle and I agree the nechanism is similar. Wat I do not understand is how the knot at 2 can be used with a separate toggle - not as a replacement for it.

Z

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 08:18:30 PM »
The idea of 2 hitches appeals so I tried a couple of ideas. The best so far is to tie a constrictor around the toggle with one rope then starting at the working end of the first rope follow round the first constrictor with the second rope in the opposite direction. This brings the standing parts of both ropes very close together so there is very little if any tendency of the toggle to twist allowing the ropes to slide off. Slide the ropes off the toggle and the knots disappear.

Barry

I like that. As I understand the original post, the pen/toggle has to be in there.

HOWEVER, if a solution without the toggle is OK, then I encourage the original poster to try out a slipped Sheet Bend.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 09:34:58 PM by Z »
If you're reading this, it's too late.

xarax

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2015, 08:31:33 PM »
... a separate toggle - not as a replacement for it.
 

   OK - I did not understand that you want to keep the toggle... I thought that the purpose was an instantly "disappearing" knot, as you said, where "the ropes need to be separated quickly whilst under tension" - and that the toggle was meant to be only a means to that end.
  Now, we can, indeed, say that a rod used as a toggle may be sleeker, and so slip more easily, than a segment of a rope ( the Tail End(s), in particular ), so you can pull it out more easily from the centre of the one or more nipping loops or opposed bights which encircle it. However, I believe that what makes such a bend to lose its integrity, is the loss of its stability, of its "balance", and you can achieve this easily by pulling a rope-made toggle, even if you do not pull it all the way out. The moment the bend will be destabilized, because the one Standing End will not be "close" ( = aligned ) to the other any more, the tension of the ropes will do the rest by itself, it will pull out the remaining part of the Tail end, and it will release the knot. 

   Another solution would be to interlink two "exploding hitches"(1) - "interlink" with or without the use of a separate toggle.
   
   1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4463.0
   
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 08:41:51 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2015, 09:53:36 PM »
   If we do not want to depend too much on the precise angle between the axis of the knot and the toggle ( which, in the solutions discussed so far should be close to the right angle, 90 degrees ), we can link the two bights as it is shown in the attached picture. ( The angle is now 45-60 degrees : this is how the two parts of the Hugo bend are interlinked (1)(2)).

   1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4090.0
   2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4090.msg32923#msg32923
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 09:55:43 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Knutern

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2015, 10:17:59 PM »
Hi.

I'll be happy if more suggestion is to be posted in this thread. If there is better toggle solution out there I'll be more than happy to learn.

I did a little test (on my pen that happens to still be laying on my table) of Xarax toggle. At first it works well. But after a couple of tensions and de-tensioning the pen would twist even more than 45 degrees. I put som pictures showing the end result.
I've not tested this toggle in ropes that hangs free - not laying down on a surface.

I'm all inn for using the rope itself s a toggle, but in this thread I want to focus on rigid toggles (wood pins it might be).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 10:19:47 PM by Knutern »
I'm aiming for knots that is secure, AND that is easy to untie.

SS369

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2015, 10:53:10 PM »
Hello Knutern.

Here is another solution for you to play with. It is based on an unfinished Figure 8.
Most of the mechanisms I have played with are toggle size to rope size dependent. I find that a larger toggle works best. Also, the toggle to rope orientation may not be very important once the bend is tight.

I have found that if you snug the knot too much before loading the standing parts, it does not release as easily. The amount dressed in the pictures (a & b) works well.

I do not endorse toggled bends for life support.

SS
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 10:54:46 PM by SS369 »