Author Topic: A knot by Design  (Read 28393 times)

Tom

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2007, 01:22:58 PM »
I take your point, Derek: all the prussik cord-on-cord discussion (and other climbing prattle) might be considered a digression from your design purpose of ultimate hitch grip isolating pulling force from the anchor. (and thank you for your kind words in another place!) I think it courteous, though, to respect Dr Karl's name - would we be so cavalier with the honoured name of Ashley?
Perhaps this is matter for another strand (thread?) then? If your hitched-to item is solid (and effectively smooth) then inward pressure is all important, but with prussiking, the flexibility of hitched-to rope can be utilised. You have made a fast, simple, and (in terms of its behaviour) reasonably predictable hitch that could indeed pick up an icicle. The heat of friction might even grip the thing more tighly if the anchor melted its way into the icy tapered spar. The Tarbuck/Midshipman/tautline/rolling hitch family would all tend to snap an icicle - as would Prussik, Klemheist &c - with assymmetrical gripping forces, but would they grip a rope more firmly for the same reason? I would guess, also, that much less damage would be caused to the rope by this lopsided bending, than with balanced 'teeth'.
And why so many doctors involved in knotting?

Dan_Lehman

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2007, 10:35:29 PM »
I think it courteous, though, to respect Dr Karl's name - would we be so cavalier with the honoured name of Ashley?
Then that would be, exactly, 'Prusik'--not 'Prussik', 'prussic', 'prusick', ... & a host of other pretenders.
('Bachmann', 'Hedden', 'klemheist', also, fyi)

 ::)

Tom

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2007, 03:25:16 PM »
Shame on me for the surplus S! Sorry Karl, and all others I have offended. Although I think the category could be prusik, and the verb prusiking, in the hoovering manner. Would this website be the place for some mighty list of recognised knots, a wee picture, and a hint at the history? It would suit at least one of the original purposes of the Guild, methinks, and might be both Authority and Reference for all in doubt. Establish a format, farm out family sections to various keen folk, quibble here and there before settling once and for all... we'ld be finished in no time!

DerekSmith

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2007, 05:12:06 PM »
Shame on me for the surplus S! Sorry Karl, and all others I have offended. Although I think the category could be prusik, and the verb prusiking, in the hoovering manner. Would this website be the place for some mighty list of recognised knots, a wee picture, and a hint at the history? It would suit at least one of the original purposes of the Guild, methinks, and might be both Authority and Reference for all in doubt. Establish a format, farm out family sections to various keen folk, quibble here and there before settling once and for all... we'ld be finished in no time!

Oh Tom,

I do so like your way of thinking, perhaps a wiki is better than a forum or a 'normal' website for all this activity and occasional quibble.

Have a look at the IGKT.pbwiki, here is an example of one knot page just waiting for user input http://igkt.pbwiki.com/Carrick

In order to make contributions to the wiki, you just need to log in using a name and password.  If you would like to give it a try, PM me and I will send you the password.  Of course, apart from multi user input, the really nice thing about a wiki is that the whole thing is searchable.  If you think you know a name of a knot, just key it in the search box and if it exists anywhere in the wiki it will be listed with a little bit of context.  Give it a try with vice versa or ampersand.

Derek

Tom

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2007, 12:20:25 PM »
What a brilliant resource! I enjoyed the history of the Ampersand in particular. New to this game, I am not entirely sure what the difference between a website and a wiki is (other than its daft/Hawaiian name), but searchability would be crucial. The problem with a name search is, of course, that you have to know the name! I had envisioned something more columnar - database-stylee - that could be reordered according to what element one required, eg. 'bends', 'pre-1900', 'very strong', 'beginning with L' &c (there's that ampersand again!).
One might even scroll down a column of thumbnail images to try to spot a particular knot.
The trouble with wiki, if I understand it right (and my faculties are severely impaired at present) is authority: if anyone can change things without review, new information would remain unchecked until another happened upon the page that was changed. A chart could show all new info in a different colour for a few weeks until folk had had their say and, indeed, be searchable by 'entries in the last 2 weeks' or some such, but then perhaps have a column for links to further (wiki?) information or more detail.
It was rather daunting for me to ask the Guild whether Tom's Bend was indeed the astonishing advance in knottery that it appeared to be - especially since I had never even visited an e-Forum, let alone posted anything. Some simple, searcheable area to make preliminary investigations would have been welcome. If the burden of annotation were stored elsewhere (though linked) the search would be clearer and faster, and be amenable to statistical inquiry. Oh, what a resource it could become!

DerekSmith

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2007, 01:55:49 AM »
But Tom,

With your knot clutched firmly in your hand and your ideal search facility open in front of you - WHAT WOULD YOU SEARCH FOR???

How would you describe your knot so that it could be searched for?

This is a grail many have been searching for - do you have any ideas????

Derek

Tom

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2007, 04:08:03 PM »
hmmm. I know that many clever folk have been involved in attempts to find a rigorous and unambiguous set of descriptive terms for knots, but the trouble with all is that one has to learn the system before one can describe the knot, and therefore new knotters will still have to post-and-hope to have their wares assessed. The point would not be to pin a knot down by description, but to show that it exists. Salient properties and uses described concisely, and more cumbersome (and subjective) information linked to elsewhere.
Had I my dream facility before me, I could at least narrow the field to 'bends' (saving a lot of work), then 'symmetrical', and then perhaps click away most of the remainder with a glance at a thumbnail, narrowing the field still further. Inevitably there will be some more tedious scrutiny before one could begin to get excited, but at least one would have the assurance that the list was reasonably exhaustive. An ABOK or Budworth encyclopaedia is an expensive tome, and not in every library, but even if these were checked through, doubt would linger.
I think we all assume the list is not finite, but it would seem a worthwhile goal for the guild to, at least, present the current state of knowledge.
The Wikipaedia discussion going on elsewhere in ChitChat hits upon the same question of authority that I mentioned above - the Guild should be the authority! It is delightful to chat about knots, but there is a serious purpose enshrined in the constitution, and a great deal of expertise here to be tapped.
Once a form were established, by farming out small parcels across the Guild, perhaps with 'Fishing'/'Climbing' (or some other type of subdivisions) editors to scrutinise consistency, really a very useful and impressive resource would quickly assemble...

DerekSmith

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2007, 10:48:47 PM »
Hi Tom,

There have been a number of attempts to mobilise some sort of group effort but generally to no avail.  It seems the key to getting something done is to set the example and do it yourself, thereby making a facility available to folks as their interest is sparked by the work already done.  To a degree this was the intention with the Wiki.  Initially there were visitors but no contributions, but over time a number of others have made the jump and started to contribute.  It is still very early days but it is starting to grow - take KC's carousel on the front page for example.

My hope is that by empowering people to take action, you might tempt them to do so.

As for your thoughts about grouping knots into activity sections - 'Fishing/ Climbing' etc, one of the really useful recent additions to the Wiki is the use of 'Tags'.  Any number of tags can be added to a page and any tag can then be listed to show all the pages it is linked to.  Click on 'bend' in the tag list and all the pages tagged with 'bend' are listed.  Obviously a knot could be a bend and a loop and a hitch and be used in fishing and climbing - all these tags can be added to a page and used for selecting a subset of pages.

Re your thoughts on 'finding a knot', I think we could well do with a front page on the various routes to find your knot, the method depending on the different needs - want to know its name, a knot for a job, how to tie, other names, is it a new knot etc etc.

As far as the wiki is concerned, value only comes with 'critical mass' and the wiki today is well below any valuable 'critical mass', but if we keep plugging away at the resources, soon folks might start to find the resource useful and worth contributing to.  As for the IGKT being the right responsible body to do this, I totally agree, and for the IGKT to retain any semblance of authoritative control, it would need to be through the guilds own wiki, rather than through wikipedia.

Derek

Tom

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2007, 01:47:30 PM »
Fair dos. I suppose it would all involve work - enough to put anyone off. I like the idea of 'empowering people to take action', but I suppose it would take a Guild Edict to really achieve the critical mass of which you speak. Perhaps when I am President, and you are all in my thrall, we shall see some action. Oh yes! Knotting on the National Curriculum; compulsory binding; reintroduction of village stocks, but using ecologically-sourced Constrictor knots instead of wooden contraptions; roving squads (with elegant, but robust, cats-o-nine-tails) of 'Grannies Against Grannies' checking that all shoelaces and neckties are appropriately arranged, bluetooth-linked to IGKT KnotSquad advisors... Just you wait til I am back on my feet!

DerekSmith

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2007, 02:50:32 PM »
Hmmm,

Nope, not all people are put off by work - for example, there is at the moment a small team working to convert all the back issues of KM into pdf format so that everyone can access old out of print issues and can search this immensely valuable resource of Guild history.

As for edict -- well can you just imagine the response to Guild Edict No 1 :: All Guild members will with immediate effect make one contribution to the Guild Wiki every week ::  The sort of person attracted to knotting might make some pretty interesting contributions to that edict.  However, action is down to critical mass and that in many respects is an aspect of the Guilds drive to increase membership.  The Guild is too small and unfortunately at the moment does not seem to be taking significant steps to increase those numbers.  Perhaps when you are President you will come up with some good ideas on how to make membership of the Guild much more attractive to a wider section of the community, then some ideas on how to promote this new value to that potential membership base.  Then again, perhaps you could turn your mind to that challenge now, while you wait for the next round of nominations.

Bringing back the Stocks and the Cat Oh YES YES and thrice times YES.  And can I have prisons that are for PUNISHMENT and FREEDOM OF SPEECH and CORPORAL PUNISHMENT put back into schools at assembly, Oh and while I am at it, can I have a BOBBY back on the beat please.  Now although you are probably suffering from an OD of morphine and Scotch, if you were to stand for those issues, then I would be your campaign manager, with or without thrall.

Derek

Tom

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2007, 05:47:21 PM »
Free Thinking, and a spirit of vigorous independence seem to go hand in hand with knotting, so perhaps - as you suggest - the Edict may not go down well. I certainly haven't the IT skills to rig up my dream list in any way that would allow others to safely contribute, so I shall leave it floating in the ether as another (one of many) opiated daydream.
As for the KM pdf project - Excellent news! I have been frustrated by one or two allusions to back issues on this site, so I look forward to dredging the archive when it becomes available.
As for those other touchy matters I stirred up in you... well, probably best (as with all the best clubs) to keep religion and politics off the agenda. I'm afraid I don't know what I am writing half the time!
I've made a nice dog lead, though - crown sennits, with a cunning bit of footrope to tie it around lampposts without losing the dog.

Phil_The_Rope

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2007, 11:21:53 PM »
Derek's enthusiasm to bring back the stocks, corporal punishment etc. ...

A lively, humerous debate took place in my local drinking establishment yesterday addressing such issues. I must confess that much of the debate was alcohol induced, so perhaps a clear headed contribution from Derek and Tom wouldn't go amiss?

We believe that our proposed "SOS" party might appeal to the law-abiding sections of society. "SOS" does suggest "help" after all, doesn't it? Unfortunately, at the moment, "SOS" stands for "Shoot on Sight"! For example, our proposed manifesto suggests the random placement of snipers at such terrible crime hot spots as places where inconsiderate drivers turn right at major junctions despite road signs demanding otherwise. Offenders would run the risk of being shot for such outrageous breaches of the law. OK, it may seem rather strict, but we figure once word got around people would stop doing it.

How does this relate to knotting, you may well ask? Well, there is the option of public flogging using the cat o' nine tails (is that decorative or practical, Derek?). The problem with flogging criminals, as opposed to shooting them, may be construed as "going soft on crime", so that is still under discussion.

"Three strikes and you're out" was also proposed. Let me explain - to err is human after all, and youngsters in particular might inadvertantly fall in with the wrong crowd. So, perhaps the first offence does not warrant being shot, the second offence is getting close, but three offences ... sorry, it's all over, matey! The first offence might be punished by a public flogging, and the "perp" could be paraded before the baying crowd with his hands tied behind his back with a simple handcuff knot, before being thrashed with the cat? Naturally, the criminal would be forced to construct his own cat o' nine tails, so teaching knots even to crooks is possible. See - knots and politics do mix!

Any suggestions for additions to the mainfesto gratefully received, especially if we can incorporate a knot or two!

By the way, how long do you think it takes to hang a condemned person? A story about Albert Pierrepoint, our most famous hangman ...

Albert entered the condemned cell, accompanied the condemned man through a door into his place of execution. Albert's accomplice tied the man's feet together, put a hood over his head and stood him over the trapdoor. Albert then pushed the lever (yes, pushed, not pulled) and the man dropped to his death.

How long did this process take, from entering the cell to the death of the condemned man? Read on ...

Pierrepoint's record was approximately 8, YES EIGHT, seconds!!!!!!

Phil

knot4u

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2011, 08:27:13 PM »
I revisited this thread.  I'm surprised, Derek, that you're so enthusiastic about the hitch in the original post.  Over time, I've respected your input about other knots on this forum.  However, I think the friction hitch in the original post is fundamentally flawed and inefficient for its purpose as a friction hitch.  I wonder if you'd still be enthusiastic about the hitch in the original post after fully testing the Well Pipe (ABOK #504), the Klemheist (ABOK #1762), and the Xarax Grip Hitch (shown in link below).

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.0
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 03:01:36 AM by knot4u »

DerekSmith

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2011, 11:13:46 PM »
I revisited this thread.  I'm surprised, Derek, that you're so enthusiastic about the hitch in the original post.  Over time, I've respected your input about other knots on this forum.  However, I think the friction hitch in the original post is fundamentally flawed and inefficient for its purpose as a friction hitch.  I wonder if you'd still be enthusiastic about the hitch in the original post after fully testing the Well Pipe (ABOK #504), the Klemheist (ABOK #1762), and the Gleipnir Grip Hitch (shown in link below).

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.0

Hi knot4u,

To be honest, I was getting a bit concerned that others were getting fed up with me forever plugging the KC Hitch, so when topic 1889 came up I decided to give it a miss unless someone else mentioned the KC, so thanks for bringing it up for me.

I am interested in our reasoning that the KC is "fundamentally flawed and inefficient for its purpose" and would be most keen to hear our substantiation for our position.  Having developed the hitch, I am obviously biased towards it, but equally, I am very keen to hear other opinions on its function and design.

As for the comparison of KC against "Well Pipe (ABOK #504), the Klemheist (ABOK #1762), and the Gleipnir Grip Hitch" - the situation with all these friction hitches is - as the name suggests - a matter of friction.

If the coefficient of friction is high then literally any old hitch will work - take a rusty old piece of pipe and a length of hempen cord, make two round turns and tie it off with a square knot and heave - it will work wonderfully.

The test then for a good friction hitch is when the coefficient of friction is particularly low.

I have tested the friction hitches using a piece of high gloss chrome tube and various cords.  To date, in my tests ALL the classical friction hitches suffer from the same fundamental fault - they take a line from the input force right to the back of the knot and haul the whole of the knot forwards.

The KC was designed to apply the force at the front of the knot and leave the root or anchor of the knot to provide the fulcrum against which the opening coils develop leverage and hence magnify line tension - from increased tension comes increased contact pressure and so increase in the total frictional grip.

The test for my claims is in reality exceedingly simple.  Choose a system with a challengingly low coefficient of friction - a glass bottle with say polyester braid, or if you are really brave, go for spectra braid.  Tie a KC Hitch and the hitch of our choice back to back and then pull them apart - have the tension on the same side of the bottle in order to keep the tension in the worst possible orientation - directly in line.

Keep pulling til one of them starts to slide - then do it again, but this time turn the bottle round in case one end has an advantage over the other.  The only rider is (and it was made quite clear in the introduction of the knot) there must be sufficient turns such that the last two turns do not start to open.

Try it for ourself and let me know what you find, but also, please let me know why you feel the hitch is 'fundamentally flawed'

Thanks
Derek

Dan_Lehman

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Re: A knot by Design
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2011, 05:56:52 AM »
Yes, I thought that a most provocative & unsupportable assertion,
myself --compounded by invoking the "Gleipnir pipe hitch" as anything
to be proud of!  One can envision a simple sort of Tug-of-War test on
these.  KC will take --indeed, nearly requires-- an initial yielding of
grip as it extends & tightens (so, too, Blake's/ProhGrip & Klemheist
--any coil-away structure, really),
but then it does tighten.  As does the Icicle, another coil-away hitch.

And that Gleipnir structure in that circumstance should prove
especially ineffective at its own nipping!


 ;)