Author Topic: A little-known knot?  (Read 4105 times)

Tex

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A little-known knot?
« on: May 25, 2015, 04:58:13 AM »
UPDATE: Sweeney found the name of one of these knots, ABOK 1021, however I am advocating for a version with the final half hitch wrapped the opposite direction, a variation which behaves quite a bit differently under end-to-end loading, ie as a bend.

I stumbled on this:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4606.msg29833#msg29833


I prefer a locked slip knot noose, myself. Just use the working end to form a half-hitch lock back over the loop itself (similar to how you half-hitch lock the Handcuff Knot to make it a Fireman's Chair).

When using the Marline Spike Hitch method of tying one, it's
  • extremely quick to tie/untie;
  • easy and FAST to adjust the loop size;
  • memorable under stress and secure (it's a single loop version of the Fireman's Chair);
  • TIB and much more resistant to jamming than other TIB loops (i.e., the Alpine Butterfly comes to mind); and
  • it can be ring loaded and have all 4 lines loaded in any direction (unlike the Bowline, Span loop, or Bowline on a bight)


Tie it in the bight the first time and you can't get it wrong. tied with the end you could end up with a little different interpretation of the last half hitch maybe, but any stopper will do.

Of course the second half hitch is meant to be tied with the slippy line of the slip knot. 

There are still two ways to tie it since the second half hitch can go around either way.  I'm kind of preferring the way where the two ends come out of the lower half hitch the same way.  It seems more compact and stable against deformation in end-to-end loading. This is also probably the more natural way to tie it in the bight, with both twists of the hand being made in the same direction.

So I wonder about thoughts on this(these) knot(s).  It seems like a good little knot, the kind of thing you'd expect to get little attention in books but that you'd likely find your neighbour or grandfather has been using all his life, but I can find no other mention of it anywhere, or I don't know how it's being called.

Probably the notion that it is just a meager slip knot noose with a "stopper" gets noses turned up at it? What good knot needs a stopper right?  On the other hand if you tie it the other way (where the two ends come out of the last half hitch the opposite way), and flatten it out, I'd bet I could trick anyone into thinking it is an alpine butterfly knot.  In fact it is the same topologically minus the crossing that interlocks the two half hitches. 

It's not so pretty and it's not PET, but it's super easy/fast to tie, hard to tie very wrong, and seems to hold tension in any or all directions, even without that much change of shape if dressed well tied in the "better" way.


« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 11:58:58 PM by Tex »

Sweeney

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Re: A little-known knot?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2015, 09:57:41 AM »
Probably very widely known but unrecognised as it's not a "proper" knot! I use a similar idea in garden string - tie a slip knot with a long loop (so that the tag end forms the loop) then lock with a slipped half hitch round the standing part. To tighten the string undo the slipped half hitch, pull the tag end to tighten (make the loop smalller) then add the slipped half hitch again. Handy when tying up plants and things when adjustment is needed - works the same way in reverse ie start with a small loop and long tag end. Never used it anything thicker than paracord but will give it a try adding the locking half hitch around the loop rather than the standing part - ABoK 1020 and 1021.

Tex

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Re: A little-known knot?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2015, 01:10:40 PM »
Yes indeed ABOK 1021 except that I prefer wrapping the last half hitch the other direction from how Ashely did it.  This is based on what I see with end-to-end loading, and Ashley might have seen other things.

I get thinking of 1020 as not a "proper" knot and I suspect there should be some tendancy to think that way about 1021, but I'm not sure it's justified, and I my words about the similarity to the ABL were meant to express that some.  It looks and behaves like a reasonably proper knot if dressed well. I'm not sure it's any less proper than a fisherman's bend (it has a fisherman's bend like mechanism).

So if we stick to one variation, my  1021 variant (1021v), this knot part can still actually make many different knot configurations, exactly because it is any ends loadable.   There should be I think 4 different loop variations (I've only tied two of them so far, the other two take more thought to figure out how to tie, but could be quite interesting).

There are also some bend variations, in fact also 4 corresponding to the 4 loops (for each of the two variants), with the loops cut.  I have tied 2, the main 1021 and 1021v loop-cut verstions.  I didn't cut the loops of course.  You don't have to.  Just hold the two ends in one hand while you twist the usual loop for the first slip knot in one rope with the other; pull the two ends through as you would a bight, and then flip the second loop over the ends as if they were the loop.  The process is no different other than having the ends imagined as glued together.

They are easy bends to tie, they both seem to work great and both are very easy to untie (again, liking mine a little better, but no clear loser yet to me).  I haven't tested untying under very heavy load but small twine tends to jam easily in my experience and I can usually get a reasonable read on jammyness just from hard hand tugs on it.  It's just a read though, not a "proper" test.

As  bend I'm having even more trouble seeing how it can be called "improper".  It's seems to really be a funny twist on a fisherman's bend.  You could even tie any of these with double half hitches or any number of other hitches of course.



 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 02:11:41 PM by Tex »

Tex

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Re: A little-known knot?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2015, 02:09:53 PM »
... and  a slipped (as in the end) version of 1021v works just fine too if you want it to be even easier to untie.

Mobius

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Re: A little-known knot?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2015, 06:55:15 AM »
I created this image for another thread, however I may as well share it here too. I think this is the version Tex likes. I quite like it anyway  :)

The half-hitch locks the eye legs and the knot is quick to tie and useful in that form as an adjustable loop, as discussed earlier.

Cheers,

mobius

Tex

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Re: A little-known knot?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2015, 04:37:08 PM »
Thanks for adding the nice pic mobius.  I think the one you show is the ABoK version.  It's a little hard to tell looking at one dressed from a single angle.  Really the ABoK drawing is a great representation of it for understanding the two variations.  Other than that, one should just tie them both and see.

 

Tex2

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Re: A little-known knot?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2015, 12:36:50 PM »
The idea that I just had (not to offend anyone who may have had it first)  is that the lower half hitch can be tied as a double coil.

It's still TIB,  but at least on some ropes, if the loop legs are pre-tightened, it seems to eliminate any roll-out of the lower hitch (that's the end of the idea).  I tried a clove hitch too which I didn't excpect to be nice and it wasn't, nor do I expect much from any more or equally convoluted hitch to be better, for they will be less compact, and will nip less well. 

Of course it should be clear that you must pre-tighten the lower hitch by pulling the associated eye leg and end.  It does though lose some of its simplicity that gives it a little charm in the first place.  It does not lose any style though.

Just another variation on a cobbled together little knot.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 03:21:47 PM by Tex2 »