Author Topic: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)  (Read 46876 times)

xarax

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2015, 03:48:14 AM »
   This "Toss Tuck" bowline is one of the worst I had ever seen... Obviously, the knot tyer had believed that he could use the Tail End the way it is used in the Angler s loop, i.e, as a rope-made wedge - without understanding the great differences between those two knots.
   Re-tucked this way, the Tail End is not nipped by the first curve, or by any other part of the nipping loop. On the contrary, it can easily slide on and slip through its casting, because it is "protected" by the surrounding segments, rather than being squeezed by them. One has just to tie and load the knot, and see how easily he can pull the Tail End out of this soft nest... 
   ( Regarding knot tying, "boaters" and sailors of today are not what they used to be during the era of the tall sailing ships ... A few years ago I had met a World champion in the Tornado class of catamarans, who knew and used ONE only knot, the "Eskimo" bowline - and I had not succeeded to teach him even one more, the common, standard bowline...)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 03:55:13 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

knot rigger

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2015, 01:17:34 AM »
Regarding Brion Toss's tucked bowline,

Quote
Obviously, the knot tyer had believed that he could use the Tail End the way it is used in the Angler s loop, i.e, as a rope-made wedge - without understanding the great differences between those two knots.

I certainly think that Mr. Toss understands the differences between an angler's loop, and the tuck-lock he recommends as an option for a bowline.  I won't bore you with Mr. Toss' credentials (which you can easily google) but suffice to say that he is widely considered an expert master yacht rigger, not to mention an excellent author on the topic.  Personally I consider him an authority on knot tying and use (but certainly not the only authority)

So Xarax, are you now adding "widely-respected-master-rigger-authors" to your list of types of people that "are such poor not tyers" :P ;)

I've used his method (but not exclusively) and I find that when well dressed, this form of the bowline is very secure.  It prevents the common "capsizing" failure mode well.  It's simplicity increases it's utility, as well as it's verifiability.

I didn't mention this in the first post, but the round turn of the eye through the anchor is not central to the locking method (if that wasn't obvious) but is a useful way to prevent chafe in the eye loop at the anchor point (think flogging sail in the wind kinda application)

I do think that Xarax raises a good point about the collar structure in the bowline being part of the definition of "bowlineness".  Perhaps a bowline must include both a nipping turn structure, as well as a collar, and must form a fixed eye (not a noose).  Certainly knots that have a collar could not be bowlines (like a butterfly knot), and perhaps other knots with a nipping turn structure could also not be classified as bowlines (like a scaffold knot ABOK #1120)

No luck yet trying to get the other two pictures uploaded, sorry about that.

xarax

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2015, 03:23:14 AM »
   Regarding Brion Toss's tucked bowline,

...the best thing you can do, out of respect to Bri0n Toss, is to remain silent about "it"... Even the greatest knot tyers have their unlucky moments.
   And if you need so much to worship somebody, I suggest you go straight to KnotGod Himself  :) : take a line, and start tying secure bowlines. However, I have to warn you that you will never become able to find ANY less useful, less clever and less secure re-tucking of the Tail End of the bowline other than this - simply because there isn't any !  :) 

   I've used his method ... and I find that when... this form of the bowline is very secure... It's simplicity increases it's utility, as well as it's verifiability.


  "Method" ! Ouaou ! This pathetic re-tucking of the Tail End is the result of a "method" ! My knees are trembling - and I am afraid I will not be able to knee in front of the "widely-respected-master-rigger-author"(sic), who had tied this "thing", and start to extoll its merits !  :)
    Of course "this form" of the bowline is very secure - simply because the bowline itself is a very secure knot ( especially when it is tied on marine ropes ), and it can withstand even the torture it suffers by this ingenious re-tucking !  :) However, I am afraid that, to make it even more "secure", "simple" and "verifiable", one should make one more step : Pull out and UN-TUCK this Tail End, and leave the poor bowline as it was made by KnotGod Himself, before the unlucky "operation"...

   I didn't mention this in the first post, but the round turn of the eye through the anchor... is a useful way to prevent chafe in the eye loop at the anchor point (  think flogging sail in the wind kinda application)


  You did very well that you did nt mention it, because it is yet another thing that should better NOT be mentioned !
  The best way to submit the line at the tip of the bowline s eye to excessive wear due to unnecessary friction, is this ! However, this round turn is not only unnecessary for the bowline, it may also become dangerously detrimental to its function and structure - because, if the direction the Standing End of the eyeknot points to varies and the nub rotates around the anchor or around the encircled object ( as it happens very often in boating and sailing, for example ), this round turn will not allow the immediate re-adjustment of the lengths of the eyelegs, and the even distribution of the tensile forces between them. All simple end-of-line loops ( and the bowline is not an exception to that ), will not function the way they are designed to function, and their structure will be submitted to possibly unfavourable strain, if the one eyeleg becomes loaded much more than the other.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 11:03:18 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2015, 08:08:08 AM »
Also, Phil D Smith's book was published before Ashley's Book of knots
and before Dr Hunter announced it to the world. Something is going on and it doesn't add up...
Perhaps you mean "before ABoK was updated
(by G.Budworth) to include it as #1425a", for otherwise
Ashley well preceded Smith.

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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2015, 08:20:27 AM »
on the topic of the Yosemite bowline
...
Neither Setnicka, nor Smith mention the perils of tying and setting the Yosimite bowline
incorrectly (as is described well by Mark Gommers in his An Analysis of Bowlines Paper,
as well as Heinze Prohaska in Nylon Highway no 26)
It's a shame that the simpler and surer like
securing wasn't what got promulgated way back ... .
Just take that tail around the eye leg in the opposite
direction --i.e., against the draw of the S.Part-- and
then up around & out through the collar, forming
thus an overhand vice fig.8 structure, and be
done.  --also with a TIB knot, btw.  (I wonder how
many YoBowl advocates realize that it's TIB?!)


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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2015, 08:39:47 AM »
Regarding Brion Toss's tucked bowline,  [<<< X., nb : 'BriOn', yes!]
...
So Xarax, are you now adding "widely-respected-master-rigger-authors"
to your list of types of people that "are such poor not tyers" :P ;)
I'll just remark here that e.g. The Encyclopedia of Knots & Fancy Ropework,
a giant conglomeration of knots images and brief entries re them,
which is now through 4 (more? --I've not looked of late) editions,
seems to me the more I look into it, re practical knots and
what else is it selling?, a massive fraud --a (bad) joke of
ineptness, nonsense (and bad copying)!!  And it ran through
4 editions over many decades and I don't hear anyone much
complaining, though there are others who concur in my
derisive name for it --"Hansel & Gretel", implying make-believe!


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alanleeknots

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2015, 11:08:08 AM »
Hi All,
       This " EyeKnot_AlanLee-Xarax_inspired_Zeppelin" has'nt been test before, I guess I have to do it, just few simple test
        make sure it work.

       first test with 1/2 inch solid braid nylon rope, I have a small comer lock pull as hard as I can, I do'nt have scale
       no idea what is the exact weight, but I can show you the picture while the knot still on tension.
       so far I have been tested  quiet a bit of knots ( if I have to guess I have to said at least 1200 lbs,)
       after the loading, it is very easy to untie, and hold quiet a solid form.

       Second test with 8mm blue water rope, do the samething pull it as hard as I can, the result are the same. It look good to me.

       Third test with 1/4 nylon solid braid nylon rope, with my mutiple force device loaded it with 650 lbs.
       With the small size rope it does create little problem to untie it, how hard to untie it, let put it this way,
       I am 5 feet 5 inches tall, weight 138 lbs., active and have a strong hand,  I use my finger nail to push it back and fore with
       my best effort and get it untie in 45 second.
       This loop have to untie it from the top collar(second collar).
 
       Mark day or two I will try to gatther some of the knots that may qualifly for your bowline paper. we will see.
   
       謝謝  alan lee.
                       
                    NO PICTURE     Error  " The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator."
            (I Got the photo this time, must be something wrong with the picture format of my new camera) 
























« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 07:42:07 AM by eric22 »

xarax

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2015, 11:42:31 AM »
   @AlanLee

   If you are going to test those knots, please, test them all !  :)  I mean, text the Lee-Zep A1, A1X, A2, A2X, B and C, shown at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3908.msg27595#msg27595
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3908.msg27596#msg27596
   
This is not a knot.

zoranz

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2015, 01:10:41 PM »
It's a shame that the simpler and surer like
securing wasn't what got promulgated way back ... .
Just take that tail around the eye leg in the opposite
direction --i.e., against the draw of the S.Part-- and
then up around & out through the collar, forming
thus an overhand vice fig.8 structure, and be
done. 

One picture would be welcome...

Thx, regards
ZZ

alanleeknots

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2015, 05:24:32 PM »
Hi All,  Zoranz, Good morning, beautiful sunsine in Vancouver, I hope is sunsine in your home town too.
          Zoranz  forget about asking, whether you and I and the reader understand it or not, is not important,  is the way it is,
          Just swallow it who care.
         
          Well I turn off my computer , going to the beach and enjoy the rest of the day

          謝謝  alan lee.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 07:57:43 AM by eric22 »

agent_smith

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2015, 12:31:41 AM »
These are just some of the images I would like to include in the next update of the 'Bowlines and other selected Eye knots' paper (working title only).

I never had the time previously to showcase the ingenious structures created by Mr Alan Lee - so that is one of my big priorities - to try to capture some of the creations and to include well considered theoretical analysis.

I intend to showcase each knot and then to show the key 'nipping structure' in exploded view immediately to its side. There will be 'front' and 'rear' views.

Key terminology will need to sorted out - and I will be seeking universal agreement from members of the this forum (eg 'nipping turn' / 'nipping structure', loop/eye, 'collar+capstan structure' etc etc).

Its going to be a very detailed study of Bowlines and selected Eye knots (not every eye knot - just those structures that are of significant interest/value and to compare these structures to the Bowline structure).

I also want to include high quality photos and exploded views showing the operation of the 'Lehman 8'.  Strangely, I am having difficulty finding any high quality images of the Lehman 8 - can anyone provide me with images?? - And also Dan had some variants to the Lehman 8 of which I also need photos/drawings. I think the Lehman 8 is worthy of show casing in the Bowlines/Eye knots paper.

Mark G
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 12:35:17 AM by agent_smith »

alanleeknots

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2015, 06:05:29 AM »
Hi All,
         This  Lee s Pretzel loop and  EyeKnot_AlanLee-Xarax_inspired_Zeppelin have the similar look, I create it previously see this link
          http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4075.msg24781#msg24781
         I believe  this Lee s Pretzel loop more secure then EyeKnot_AlanLee-Xarax_inspired_Zeppelin. I will test it when I have chance.
         
         Mark, no sure if this loop have any good for what you trying do.

             謝謝  alan lee.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2015, 07:47:53 AM »
Just take that tail around the eye leg in the opposite
direction --i.e., against the draw of the S.Part-- and
then up around & out through the collar, forming
thus an overhand vice fig.8 structure, and be
done. 

One picture would be welcome...
There are many of the YoBowl, and just alter
that tying where, if the tail has been taken clockwise
over the eye leg and ... out through the collar,
one changes by going anti-clockwise & under ... ,
to go out the collar.  It is that simple.  (And the
"under" vice "over" is  not really a 2nd thing to
remember, but merely a stated consequence
of going around in the opposite direction.)


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xarax

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2015, 10:20:27 AM »
not every eye knot - just those structures that are of significant interest/value and to compare these structures to the Bowline structure).

   To my view, NO overhand-knot-based bend ( or, for that matter, fig.8-knot-based bend ) turned into an eyeknot should be compared to the bowline, ever !
   The links of (most) such bends "work" differently than the "nipping structure" of the bowline ( although they may work in the same way the "collar structure" of the bowline works ). Why ? Because, in a link of such a bend, we want to immobilise the penetrating line of the other link as much as we can, WITHOUT the help of a collar, and for that we use links ( overhand knots or fig.8 knots ) that are as tightly "closed" around themselves as possible. In the bowline, the "nipping structure" has only to immobilize the second leg of the collar, not the first one. When the continuation of the returning eyeleg has made its U-turn around the Standing Part, the portion of the tensile forces which is able to reach to the second collar has already been reduced a lot, so the burden of immobilizing is also reduced. In the bowline, we do not need nipping structures as tightly closed around themselves as the overhand knot or the fig.8 knot - moreover, we do not want suck knots, because we want our eyeknot to be as easily untiable as possible.
   Again, I will repeat that I am talking about the easiness of untiability after HEAVY loading - and I can not tell if in some applications ( rescue or climbing, for example ), such loadings happen. In boating and sailing, they do, very often, and that is why seamen use their "king of knots", the bowline.
   It is a very simple thing to turn any of the existing bends into an eyeknot ! However, it is a very difficult thing to find a bend that, when turned into a loop, will be easily untiable, and will be PET.
   If one wants to tie and try the bends which are NOT based on overhand knots of on fig.8 knots, and so they will still have chances to be easily untiable even after really heavy loading, he can tie all the 25 A bends of Miles, and turn them to the 100 corresponding PET eyeknots. ( And tells me if he finds among them a TIB eyeknot that I had missed... :) )   
   
 
   [ The members of "Climbers and Co." company are kindly requested to skip the next/last paragraph - too much "keystroking" for their taste, and not enough brainstorming, to regenerate asphyxiated brain cells, I am afraid )
  Personally, I am interested only in bowline-like eyeknots that are also TIB, for many reasons. If a knot tyer does not understand/feel the versatility and the conceptual beauty of a knot that can do anything another knot does, but it is also TIB, I can not help him, I am afraid : he will miss the practical advantage of a most useful and the mental pleasure of a most enjoyable aspect of knotting, but I guess he will manage to live without it.  :) I am only interested in knotting for nothing - if by this "nothing" we mean a particular application, a "purpose", such as money-making, rope-joining, tie and shoelaces tying, etc. I am interested in knotting for the pure joy of being able to "knot" a rope into a "knot", by tying it in-the-bight, and which knot, although it will remain topologically equivalent to the unknot, i.e., to the straight, unknotted line, will nevertheless be stable and secure - and this joy can not be overestimated.]
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 10:24:05 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alpineer

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Re: Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2015, 04:50:25 PM »
If a knot tyer does not understand/feel the versatility and the conceptual beauty of a knot that can do anything another knot does, but it is also TIB, I can not help him, I am afraid 
And apparently we cannot help you understand anything. ;D ;D