Author Topic: How much redressing makes a new knot?  (Read 14346 times)

Tex

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Re: How much redressing makes a new knot?
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2015, 03:53:06 PM »
Maybe I should make a new thread, but it strikes me that there are obviously two more Butterfly family loops, which are nearly identical to each other (as identical as the asymmetry in the ABL.

Those loops make a loop from one of the traditional eye legs with one of the traditional parent legs.

It strikes me that one of the biggest weaknesses of this knot part is that it capsizes when the ends comming out together are loaded.  Ie, ring loaded for ABL and end-to-end for MBL.  This other form probably could not do that since it would require pulling one eye leg and one parent leg at the same time, probably without pulling the other eye leg (maybe unproven, but seems probable that pulling all three could prevent the capsizing.

I haven't tied it yet and it somehow seems mechanically a bit ugly maybe, but well something to try anyway.  It can't be all bad.  This knot part never is all bad.

Tex

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Re: How much redressing makes a new knot?
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2015, 04:26:34 PM »
So I just tied one.  Use the tie in the end method,  but just tie the second half of the knot with the end that is normally the standing end.

It's cute.  There are two very different ways it can be loaded depending which end you load.  Others can argue about if those loadings are different knots or knot.

I need a designation for which of the two nearly identical versions I tied.  It's not TIB though, so maybe not so interesting.



« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 04:33:46 PM by Tex »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: How much redressing makes a new knot?
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2015, 08:11:42 PM »
Maybe I should make a new thread, but it strikes me that there are obviously two more Butterfly family loops, which are nearly identical to each other (as identical as the asymmetry in the ABL.

Those loops make a loop from one of the traditional eye legs with one of the traditional parent legs.
Eh, borrrrring.   ;D

One can make a like-butterfly knot where one side will
take a fig.8 vice overhand form --and thus the
*rotation* of U-turns' nipping will go in the same direction;
loading this qua eyeknot w/overhand having the S.Part
should be more resistant to jamming.

Quote
It strikes me that one of the biggest weaknesses of this knot part is that it capsizes when the ends comming out together are loaded.  Ie, ring loaded for ABL and end-to-end for MBL.
Actually, one could see this as not so much a weakness,
but a reassurance --i.e., that it capsizes into a secure,
well-known form.  But I recall devising a abseil-ropes-joining
end-2-end knot that could do this and found by chance
that it could also/otherwise *partially capsize* --i.e., one side
giving way prior the other (think : different rope qualities)
and ... pffffffwooosh, the knot was untied !!  (Alpineer was
happy to learn of my experience prior to maybe using the
knot.)


--dl*
====

Tex

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Re: How much redressing makes a new knot?
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2015, 12:25:44 AM »
Yeah, you're right, it is a little boring.  I agree that this knot is ultimately secure anyway you tie it.  This is more than a secure knot. It's a secure topology and THAT is largely what has made the name of the ABL well known.

There had been comments earlier though about not liking a form that will give a little surprise under load. I think this form won't, ring loaded or end-to-end loaded or either end loaded.  That's all I can say for it though. It's not high praise.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: How much redressing makes a new knot?
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2015, 01:40:44 AM »
I agree that this knot is ultimately secure anyway you tie it.
This is more than a secure knot. It's a secure topology and
THAT is largely what has made the name of the ABL well known.
Oh, now you worry me : what made the name popular
is more myth and fancy, IMO.  And as I further think about
the "partially capsizing" abseil-ropes-joiner I had, IIRC it
was supposedly also of a "secure topology" (a brain-warping
term) --that of Ashley's #1452 I think (!).  Not sure
if I can find the thread here (or knot sketches within my
reach at *my* "here").  And, for reference knot-#s out of
ABoK, "lanyard knot" #781 or thereabouts is the
pre-capsized version, to be loaded making it an "offset"
knot like the infamous "EDK" (offset water knot)
--prior to possible capsizing, that is!
.:.  Be careful when you count your chickens!    :o   ;)


--dl*
====

Tex

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Re: How much redressing makes a new knot?
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2015, 04:27:02 PM »
I'm afraid we weren't the first to notice that the alpine butterfly knot part capsizes into itself:

http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6604&start=45

Dan_Lehman

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Re: How much redressing makes a new knot?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2015, 06:16:22 PM »
I'm afraid we weren't the first to notice that the alpine butterfly knot part capsizes into itself:

http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6604&start=45
Ah, reading subversive, underground literature!   ;D

(Thanks, that made for a nice refresher.)

--dl*
====