Author Topic: Figure 8 Loop  (Read 14745 times)

agent_smith

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Re: Figure 8 Loop
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2015, 12:38:47 AM »
Quote
Climbers are sooo poor knot tyers ! They know only a very small number of knots

Now your parroting might have stepped over line.

Many climbers are very good at tying the knots they use on a routine basis. Jim Bridwell ('the Bird') was quoted as stating that he climbed all of his famous routes using less than 6 knots.

Many climbers would argue that knowing a small handful of knots very well is better than knowing hundreds of knots less well. In contrast, an IGKT member will want to intimately know hundreds of knots and hitches and the science behind them.

My main point here is that climbers are not knotting enthusiasts like the members of the IGKT forum. Climbers see knots as tools (like a screw driver). They dont really care how the screw-driver is designed  - they just want to know that it works.

You see, IGKT members are passionate about knots and knotting - thats why they are involved in this forum. You wont see many rock climbers in the IGKT forum - because they are more interested in being outside enjoying their sport - and challenging themselves in the vertical world.

You cant criticise them for (knowing and using only a select few knots) because they are simply wanting to participate in and enjoy their sport. They want to improve their climbing ability and push their personal limits. The harness they wear, the rope they use and the knots they tie are just means to an end. Most climbers are using either the Figure 8 eye knot or some secured Bowline derivative - all they care about is that it will not fail - it will save their life if they fall.

Xarax, in making such comments ("climbers are sooo poor knot tyers") you are judging others against your personal knotting values and morals. You have a different objective (and different type of passion) in mind than the average climber.

Not everyone will share your passion for knots and all things knotting - you cant force your set of values (about knots) on others.

...

Edited for enhanced clarity...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 02:09:51 AM by agent_smith »

xarax

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Re: Figure 8 Loop
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2015, 01:26:18 AM »
Climbers or sailors for that matter, do not have to refute anything, line by line or any way..

  Of course they "do not have to", if they are not interested in what I had said - but if they claim I had not been fair to them, they HAVE to explain why ! When one says that somebody is too damning in what he says, he has to prove it - otherwise he just ignores it.

...if they are hounded or condescended to, guess what, they leave.
   When you participate in an "open" Forum, where everybody tells his own thing, and for his own reasons, which do not always have a relation with the issues discussed, you run this danger, indeed. Personally, I were "hounded or condescended to" DOZENS of times, but my love for the knots themselves had kept me in - at least until I will be kicked out ... :)

   No, I wouldn't support the statement that climbers are soooo poor knot tyers 

   First, I was speaking generally, about the average climber, not the rare climber who happens to be a knot tyer, or vice versa. Second, I had elaborated a little on this statement : I said :
1. They know only a small number of knots. ( True or false ? )
2. They do not know ( and they do not want to learn ) how knots "work". ( True or false ? )
    I have followed many discussions on climbing sites, I have a few friends who are climbers, and I have never ever met one who tries to "see" a knot not only as a "tool" which has only to "do the job", but also as a structure, as a mechanism, in order to get some idea of how and why it "works" the way it "works". Some of them had tested some knots, that is true, but only very few knots, on a very limited number of samples, on a very limited variety of materials - and they had never tried to modify the knots they already know, and test those modifications, too, to explore some hidden potential. The only kind of knots where there have been some experimentation, is the climbing gripping hitches, but even thee there is no explanation of why some work better than the others... I had read only some hand-weaving arguments - not convincing at all, I should say.
   In particular, in their beloved, basic knot, the fig.8 loop, they still have not seen that there are many stable ways to dress it, not only two, as parroted again and again, and that some of them may be significantly better than the others, if not re. strength, at least re. easiness of untying. Also, I had never ever see any modification of the holy fig.8 loop. I said that :
   4. They do not know ( and they do not want to try to figure out) how to improve them. ( True or false ? )
   Why ? Will it punish us as heretics ? Is its form carved in stone, and can not be changed, ever ? WHO had proved that this is the One, and the Only, and "Best" super-duper loop in the Universe ? HOW had he did that ? Is the "argument" that, "because it does not kill the climber, it is OK" any sort of "proof" or "explanation" which one can discuss seriously ? So, any knot which does not kill the user, is OK, and we have to use this, and nothing else, the nest 4 billion years ?

   THOSE were the 4 lines / which one should first discuss, before he starts to claim that I was not fair with climbers... Of course, he can ignore my arguments, but then I can also ignore his whining about my unfair and/or too damning critique of the knotting abilities /interests of climbers.
   
Some just want to climb. Not such a hard concept.

...While when one just wants to know how things work, and how knots work, and how many different knots can exist that do the same thing with the minimum danger of slippage, with minimum amount of material, with minimum time required to tie and/or untie them, THEN it becames a HARD concept... :) :) :)

they don't claim that another tyer is is a poor knotter because he is at a different level of understanding or interest.

   Do me a favour, SS369. Suppose, just suppose that I believe I have some reasonable arguments, and that my opinion is not totally unfounded or biased, and I think that the answer in all those 4 questions above is "True". WHAT word should I use ? If "poor" is not the proper word ( it was the first word that came into my mind...), which is the word that describes thi s hypothetical, at least, situation fairly and squarely ? Please, tell me, and I will edit my previous text immediately.
   I do wish to provoke discussions, not bad feelings ! I do not consider myself a genuine/proper  :) knot tyer, because I do not test knots, so my argumenta are mostly of the hand-weaving, or line filling, kind... However, I just want to learn from other more experienced and knowledgeable people. Not such a hard concept.  :) :)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 01:29:22 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Figure 8 Loop
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2015, 01:59:59 AM »
  Now your parroting might have stepped over line..

  Tell it to people who do not like the picture of my avatar !  :)

Many climbers are very good at tying the knots they use on a routine basis. Jim Bridwell ('the Bird') was quoted as stating that he climbed all of his famous routes using less than 6 knots...

   Is this an argument against my statement, that they know only a few knots ?  :)
   I can do ALL of my famous walking, using shoelaces tied with only ONE knot !  :) Am I a good knot tyer ?  :)
   It is amusing how people defend what they are doing - If somebody needs or uses 6 knots, and he is "very good at tying them", he is a GREAT knot tyer !  :) I use only ONE knot, and I tie it magnifically, so I suppose this makes me a Knot-semi-God or something...  :)

My main point here is that climbers are not knotting enthusiasts like the members of the IGKT forum. Climbers see knots as tools (like a screw driver). They dont really care how the screw-driver is designed  - they just want to know that it works....
   It is boring to me to quote, line by line, word by word, sentence by sentence, how many times I had said the same things, and I have repeated them in the text to which you supposedly reply. So, please, you do not have to parrot me, while, at the same time, you are trying to argue with what I say ! Because, if you do this, THEN, "your parroting might have stepped over line.." (sic)

You cant criticise them for wanting to participate in and enjoy their sport.

WHO did that, WHEN ? Are you imagining you are talking to Savonarola ?  :) :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola

Xarax, you are judging others against your personal knotting values and morals. You have a different objective in mind.

  I am judging others in comparison to something they do NOT do, either because they do not love it, as I do, or they are not interested in it, or because they simply do not need to do it ! They do NOT tie enough knots, they do not know how they work, they do not want to improve them. HOW on Earth ( UpOver or DownUnder this Earth ) have you IMAGINED that !@#$%^&*()_+ "against my personal values and morals" (sic) ?  Are knots "values" which are endowed with "morals ?  :) :) I do not play tennis, if somebody tells me that I am a poor tennist , he is  " judging me against his personal knotting values and morals " ?  :) :) :) Is tennis a "value" or a "moral" ?  :) :) I do not speak English, but I start to believe that we should start to talk to each other in LATIN, or something, because what you say is all Greek to me !

   Now your parroting might have stepped over line..

   I quote your fair statement about me again, so you will enjoy it a little longer !

   @ SS369 : Now you know how "we, the members of this forum, stick to knots with friendly, interesting discourse."
   Period.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 02:27:20 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Figure 8 Loop
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2015, 02:22:30 AM »
    As I might had expected, I am already under the crossfire of two climbers, who, perhaps in their subconscious effort to prove that I am not mistaken in what I had said  :), they had not written A WORD, not even ONE single word, about the crux of the matter, explained in the 5 ( = five) paragraphs after the first, of my reply at :
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5313.msg35501#msg35501
    I have to suppose they had read only this first paragraph, or only the first sentence of this paragraph - because all those 5  next paragraphs were about the fig.8 loop, and only about the fig .8 loop, about which I am parroting, of course, and I do not know, but which they "use", so they know.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 02:24:19 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Figure 8 Loop
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2015, 03:32:36 AM »
    As I might had expected, I am already under the crossfire of two climbers, who, perhaps in their subconscious effort to prove that I am not mistaken in what I had said  :), they had not written A WORD, not even ONE single word, about the crux of the matter, explained in the 5 ( = five) paragraphs after the first, of my reply at :
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5313.msg35501#msg35501
    I have to suppose they had read only this first paragraph, or only the first sentence of this paragraph - because all those 5  next paragraphs were about the fig.8 loop, and only about the fig .8 loop, about which I am parroting, of course, and I do not know, but which they "use", so they know.

Perhaps if you had not expected what you perceived, it would not happen.

You are not in any crossfire. Something you wrote was disagreed with (Your opening remark) and the all consuming statements are not fair to the members who may not have your zeal. One cannot make another thirst for learning, especially by calling them out.
Ridicule is the worst education tool that I know.

Quote
    Do me a favour, SS369. Suppose, just suppose that I believe I have some reasonable arguments, and that my opinion is not totally unfounded or biased, and I think that the answer in all those 4 questions above is "True".

So what. They come here for some reason and should not be made to feel little. They may be budding tyers and want to learn from such masters.

As for your other Fig 8 layups, prove that they are better. Test them.

This is off topic nonsense and I care no more for it. So, if you'll take it private with whomever you want to, go for it.

SS
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 03:39:11 AM by SS369 »

xarax

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Re: Figure 8 Loop
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2015, 04:33:44 AM »
the all consuming statements are not fair to the members who

  I wrote my opinion about the majority of climbers, NOT about the members of this Forum ! If I will be censored for my opinion, fine ! I have been censored before, and I know... I said that climbers, IN GENERAL, are poor knot tyers, and I mean it, and nobody told me which more correct/proper word I should had used ! I know enough climbers, and I read enough posts in enough climbing Forums to have an opinion on this matter, I believe. Other members will have other opinions, but I do not claim that their opinions are not fair to me ! !
 
This is off topic nonsense

The ONLY on topic things were written by me, at Reply#43, of which the climber lobby picked up only the FIRST sentence ! And, of course, NOT A WORD, not even ONE, about anything else of the 5 next paragraphs of this post...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 04:34:33 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Figure 8 Loop
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2015, 08:59:56 AM »
   When a knot tyer watches this video with the fig.8 loop, the very first thing he notices, is the most obvious thing : the initial shape of the fig.8 loop is distorted very unevenly, to a degree it becomes unrecognizable. Then, the next thing he notices is that this outer "higher" collar seems to be almost unloaded, that it, almost redundant ! Evidently, it does not participate in the dissipation of the tensile forces as mush as the other segments of the nub - and when a structure does not utilizes some of its available elements, or a knot does not utilizes some of its segments, it is not an optimally designed mechanism : it uses more material than it needs, and it uses it in a non-optimal way.
X., I presume that you attached the image of the
near/at-rupture state of the knot?  Can you add the
one at the start --the "set"/start state?

Wow, what compression.  And I see (in the final) that
the S.Part's nip-grip of the eye legs likely has let less
of their forces return the favor (gripping, i.e.) to the
S.Part itself --an imbalance that grows, with tension.
One might wonder if the test specimen had been of
a frictive rope (and maybe of a less elastic one, too!)
would the same imbalance occur, or would perhaps
the eye legs get in some good grip on the S.Part so
that a different geometry obtained at later states?!

Thanks,
--dl*
====

xarax

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Re: Figure 8 Loop
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2015, 12:54:26 PM »
I presume that you attached the image of the near/at-rupture state of the knot?  Can you add the one at the start --the "set"/start state ?

I had just "frozen" the video, used Shift + PrintScreen keys to capture the image, and then I had "paste-ed" it in Paint, and saved it as .jpeg.
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Figure 8 Loop
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2015, 05:56:52 PM »
I presume that you attached the image of the near/at-rupture state of the knot?  Can you add the one at the start --the "set"/start state ?

I had just "frozen" the video, ...
Of these nexTwo pics,
the top one shows a "weak form" fig.8, clearly indicated
by the tensioned S.Part pulled (down) away from the now
idle upper twin part.
Whereas the bottom image I think shows the "strong
form", eye below and S,Part & tail (and it almost looks
to be a tightly bound trio of parts!?) above,
with the S.Part deeply pushed against and then even
past the thus-bulging-outwards (unloaded) twin part.

But neither of these shows a pre-loaded, hand-set
(I presume) knot state.  I'm curious re that vis-a-vis
how much anticipation of the latter bearing-against
force can be done in setting hard the tail, so to leave
not enough material to give way to the S.Part's
pressure (or not w/o a good *fight* that consumes
some force!).  !?

Thanks again,
--dl*
====