Climbers or sailors for that matter, do not have to refute anything, line by line or any way..
Of course they "do not have to", if they are not interested in what I had said - but if they claim I had not been
fair to them, they HAVE to explain why ! When one says that somebody is too damning in what he says, he has to prove it - otherwise he just ignores it.
...if they are hounded or condescended to, guess what, they leave.
When you participate in an "open" Forum, where everybody tells his own thing, and for his own reasons, which do not always have a relation with the issues discussed, you run this danger, indeed. Personally, I were "hounded or condescended to" DOZENS of times, but my love for the knots themselves had kept me in - at least until I will be kicked out ...
No, I wouldn't support the statement that climbers are soooo poor knot tyers
First, I was speaking generally, about the average climber, not the rare climber who happens to be a knot tyer, or vice versa. Second, I had elaborated a little on this statement : I said :
1. They know only a small number of knots. ( True or false ? )
2. They do not know ( and they do not want to learn ) how knots "work". ( True or false ? )
I have followed many discussions on climbing sites, I have a few friends who are climbers, and I have never ever met one who tries to "see" a knot not only as a "tool" which has only to "do the job", but also as a structure, as a mechanism, in order to get some idea of how and why it "works" the way it "works". Some of them had tested some knots, that is true, but only very few knots, on a very limited number of samples, on a very limited variety of materials - and they had never tried to modify the knots they already know, and test those modifications, too, to explore some hidden potential. The only kind of knots where there have been some experimentation, is the climbing gripping hitches, but even thee there is no explanation of why some work better than the others... I had read only some hand-weaving arguments - not convincing at all, I should say.
In particular, in their beloved, basic knot, the fig.8 loop, they still have not seen that there are many stable ways to dress it, not only two, as parroted again and again, and that some of them may be significantly better than the others, if not re. strength, at least re. easiness of untying. Also, I had never ever see any
modification of the holy fig.8 loop. I said that :
4. They do not know ( and they do not want to try to figure out) how to improve them. ( True or false ? )
Why ? Will it punish us as heretics ? Is its form carved in stone, and can not be changed, ever ? WHO had
proved that this is the One, and the Only, and "Best" super-duper loop in the Universe ? HOW had he did that ? Is the "argument" that, "
because it does not kill the climber, it is OK" any sort of "proof" or "explanation" which one can discuss seriously ? So, any knot which does not kill the user, is OK, and we have to use this, and nothing else, the nest 4 billion years ?
THOSE were the 4 lines / which one should first discuss, before he starts to claim that I was not fair with climbers... Of course, he can ignore my arguments, but then I can also ignore his whining about my unfair and/or too damning critique of the knotting abilities /interests of climbers.
Some just want to climb. Not such a hard concept.
...While when one just wants to know how things work, and how knots work, and how many different knots can exist that do the same thing with the minimum danger of slippage, with minimum amount of material, with minimum time required to tie and/or untie them, THEN it becames a HARD concept...
they don't claim that another tyer is is a poor knotter because he is at a different level of understanding or interest.
Do me a favour, SS369.
Suppose, just suppose that I believe I have some reasonable arguments, and that my opinion is not totally unfounded or biased, and I think that the answer in all those 4 questions above is "
True". WHAT word should I use ? If "
poor" is not the proper word ( it was the first word that came into my mind...), which is the word that describes thi s hypothetical, at least, situation fairly and squarely ? Please, tell me, and I will edit my previous text immediately.
I do wish to provoke
discussions, not bad feelings ! I do not consider myself a genuine/proper
knot tyer, because I do not
test knots, so my argumenta are mostly of the
hand-weaving, or
line filling, kind... However, I just want to learn from other more experienced and knowledgeable people. Not such a hard concept.
