Author Topic: Agent Smith's Challenge  (Read 7554 times)

knot rigger

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2015, 05:49:06 AM »
Alpineer,

I like your clove hitch to the 'biner method.  It does lessen the possibility of side loading and gate loading.  But I wouldn't say that is eliminates the possibility of improperly loading the 'biner.

As far as the Fisherman's loop method you mention.  You mean ABOK 1038  but tied with the bight of the ABK?  Such that you end up with two lined passing through your tie in point?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 06:44:17 PM by knot rigger »

alpineer

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2015, 07:44:13 AM »
As far as the Fisherman's loop method you mention.  You mean ABOK 1038  but tied with the bight of the ABK?  Such that you end up with two lined passing through your tie in point?

ABoK 1039 gives a more symmetrical appearance, but yes; tie an OverHand with the Bight of the ABK. Leave enough Bight to reeve through the tie-in point(s) and return back through the center of the OverHand and finish with another OverHand with a Bight around the Bight. 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 08:02:00 AM by alpineer »

enhaut

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2015, 12:23:11 PM »
knot rigger,

Quote
but I gather that you propose it as a more secure, or maybe stronger alternative to the ABK?

This is unknown territory for me.
I suggested this form only because it has more material involve and it seems more robust regarding distortion.

knot rigger

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2015, 01:00:50 AM »
Quote
tie an OverHand with the Bight of the ABK. Leave enough Bight to reeve through the tie-in point(s) and return back through the center of the OverHand and finish with another OverHand with a Bight around the Bight.

I think Alpineer's Fisherman knot finish is a good solution.  While I think the fisherman's loop is secure enough for the tast, I do wonder about it's general acceptance in climbing circles.  I do know that it's not a widely known knot in ropes access circles, despite its utility.

Let me suggest another method,  combining Alpineer's clove hitch to the 'biner technique, with Agent_Smiths pass the bight through the ABK method:

Agent_Smith:
Quote
Now I have indeed devised a method - but it involves making the eye of the Butterfly elongated (sort of into a long bight segment) and then 'retracing' that bight back through the central nub and then terminating it with a figure 8 eye knot and clipping that eye to the harness

Aplineer:
Quote
My preferred way of tying onto the middle of the rope for glacier travel has been to connect the Eye of a long loop Butterfly to the biner with a clove hitch.

So, tie a long ABK loop, pass the bight through the tie in point, then back through the nipping turns of the ABK, clove hitch the bight to a 'biner, and clip the biner to the tie-in point.

This would eliminate the bulky fig 8 knot, as well as stabilize the 'biner and lessen the possibility of side loading or roll-out.  Additionally, due to the three total attachments to the harness, the potential load on the 'biner would be 1/3 of the total (whether or not it's side loaded).  In the event of carabiner roll-out, you would still have two loops through your tie-in point.  At that point the body of the ABK would tighten up and the nip the remaining two loops, which might be adequate.  The worst case would be that the bight with the carabiner would slide back to the body of the ABK, and would be unlikely to slip through the body of the tightened ABK.

Overall this method seems to be a good improvement in security, with minimal drawbacks of bulk or efficiency.

SS369

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2015, 01:42:11 AM »
These are pretty ingenious ideas, but what happened to "A challenge I will throw to this forum is to devise a tying method of attaching the Butterfly knot connective eye directly to the harness without need for carabiners." ?


alpineer

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2015, 01:56:37 AM »
These are pretty ingenious ideas, but what happened to "A challenge I will throw to this forum is to devise a tying method of attaching the Butterfly knot connective eye directly to the harness without need for carabiners." ?

To address Agent Smith's Challenge, tie a Fisherman's Loop directly onto to the harness with the ABK's Eye .     

A carabiner is not required. The Bight can be secured insde one of the harness' leg loops, if it's the buckle closure type. Alternatively, you could finish with a Strangle in place of the second OverHand.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 10:26:09 PM by alpineer »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2015, 05:46:00 PM »
Regarding the make-a-big-larkshead-hitch with the
butterfly eye-bight, there has been the presumption
that the harness is part of the body, when in fact it
can be removed for the making of this attachment.

One of my concerns with this, though, is the problem of
extricating oneself from the attachment, where that might
be desired --and finding it thus too secure.

(And I echo Scott's questioning of how 'biners got involved
in this challenge --their absence seemed quintessential!)


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alpineer

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2015, 08:42:59 PM »
Regarding the make-a-big-larkshead-hitch with the
butterfly eye-bight, there has been the presumption
that the harness is part of the body, when in fact it
can be removed for the making of this attachment.

Roo mentioned this in the OP. 


Quote
One of my concerns with this, though, is the problem of
extricating oneself from the attachment, where that might
be desired --and finding it thus too secure.

I've heard that argument before. Yes, a concern, but in what situation, I don't know. 

 

 

Mobius

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2015, 12:55:02 PM »
I have no real answer to Agent Smith's challenge. The picture below is a mid-line hitch I was playing with a while back that is formed by passing a bight around an endless rail (or to a harness directly perhaps ;) ) and tying it off so you could load both ends (either just one end or both ends together). This photo was taken of the knot after load.

The best I came up with was the hitch below and is one where I deliberately tried for a Butterfly looking lock structure. I just gave it a quick trial on my rig and (rather surprisingly perhaps) it held to 100Kg without slipping in my rope material (3mm smooth 16 plait polyester braid breakload 200kg). Sure, it settled a bit, however that was not surprising.

I'm not pretending this answers the challenge, nor does it look too secure for the end-2-end application required for a middle climber with legs spread wide as my picture shows. However the 'butterfly looking' part (I don't show the top of the single loop) of the the knot didn't move even a little bit that I could see in my trial when I tested it this way. The knot was very easy to untie.

This knot might be interesting to use in other less critical applications, (mooring two boats around a tree with the same long rope perhaps!?)  so I thought I would share.

I can show a tying method if anyone is interested. The knot might be new.

Cheers,

mobius

Edit: updated the image
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 11:41:15 AM by mobius »

SS369

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2015, 01:26:45 PM »
Please show the tying method.

Thanks in advance.

SS

Mobius

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2015, 02:35:11 PM »
Please show the tying method.

Thanks in advance.

SS

Sure, I'll work on some tying photos tomorrow. I haven't bought any decent rope yet for pictures, however I'll try to make them as clear as I can.

Cheers,

mobius

Mobius

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2015, 01:27:16 PM »
Here is a link to my Google Drive showing a tying method.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/12DcnLkrRs7zCimNLUUnbBg4JXg2otXtskwytC-v1ics/edit?usp=sharing

I think my knot is pretty easy to tie, apart from paying attention to feeding the bight through the two helical loops correctly. This knot is a 'work in progress' and is one I pick up occasionally and fiddle with trying to find what might be a better form, or variation. I don't think it is too bad as it is, however give me some feedback please.

Note that I didn't design it as a direct harness attachment for a middle climber, spreading the legs 1800 under load surely looks a little disconcerting, however the knot did hold when I trialled it this way. Only one trial, however if someone thinks it is useful then I can do more trials. Larger diameter rope trials would be much better of course :)

Cheers,

mobius

« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 01:28:23 PM by mobius »

SS369

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2015, 01:41:05 PM »
Thank you for sharing the tying method, it helps with analyzing it.

The challenge I see with this is that it will operate as a noose and that may, most likely cinch down to the point of hard to untie. NBut, a hard loading may prove this to be a wrong assumption.

Let us know if you can verify this.

SS

Mobius

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2015, 02:44:49 PM »
Thank you for sharing the tying method, it helps with analyzing it.

The challenge I see with this is that it will operate as a noose and that may, most likely cinch down to the point of hard to untie. NBut, a hard loading may prove this to be a wrong assumption.

Let us know if you can verify this.

SS

Another quick trial, this time using a key as my endless rail. I took my knot to 95kg load and then untied it easily. The single locking loop structure (the 'butterfly') didn't move at all under load (I was looking for the loop getting swallowed in particular) and was very easy to loosen off the key afterwards. Maybe the knot jams if my endless rail is a more compressible material and the noose really gets small and tight under load.

The picture shows the semi-untied state after load. The only other trial I could do with larger rope is tow my parked car with it and see what happens. However, that has to wait.

Cheers,

mobius.

[Edit: I should just trial the hitch under one end loading, however I am pretty sure that this is a much kinder way to load this hitch than the 1800 end-2-end loading I have already done]
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 03:00:45 AM by mobius »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Agent Smith's Challenge
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2015, 06:54:22 PM »
Just thought I'd remark that in musing solutions to this
challenge, I tied the butterfly --let's just call it that, for now--
in the "twirly flop" method (twist bight to make "hole",
and then bring around and tuck tip through ...) such that
my bight was taken through the (imaginary) harness
en route to making the final tuck --and maybe then
making a repeat, or tying off the bight tip with a stopper.

This knotting is offered for amusement
more than as a good solution.


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