Author Topic: 2-wrap Timber hitch  (Read 8448 times)

Dan_Lehman

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Re: 2-wrap Timber hitch
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2015, 04:07:42 PM »
THIS will nip irrespective of surface contact --or none-- with the object,
unlike that inferior cow that X. keeps bringing up--utterly uncompelling, IMO. 

   Unlike THIS superior knot  :), the "inferior", "utterly uncompelling" Locked Cow hitch  I "keep bringing up" happens to be TIB... but you should had noticed that, because I "keep saying" it.
   ( However, I should nt expect from you to notice that the hitch shown in that thread is also TIB, should I ?  :) Of course, it may be one of the rare cases where TIB-ness makes no sense at all )
Indeed, TIB isn't what I expect to need, want, or use.
 
Quote
  P.S.
   A "tight hitch" will never have any problem keeping all the parts of the knot, its "locking" nub included, in contact with the surface of the hitched object(s) - so the supposed "insecurity" of the Locked Cow hitch is a figment of imagination. If a "tight hitch" can not be pre-tightened, or has not been pre-tightened, it does not exist, by definition...
That is an idealist's view which is at odds with the
forces of Nature!  --YMMV.

Quote
   ALL the snug hitches work just because, and only when, the Tail Ends are buried under riding turns, and squeezed in between them and the surface of the pole - so the criticism on the Locked Cow hitch misses the point, even there.  If we want a hitch where the only part in contact with the surface of the object(s) will be its wraps, we have to use a noose-like hitch, like the Bull Clove hitch.
Well, that makes for interesting thoughts about how
the Improved Cow +  Better Half (what I described above)
is a noose-hitch --about what then is the *knot* component
for the compound structure (which is hardly so easily seen
and spatially --length of segment, i.e.-- compact, as is
the clove hitch knot of noose-hitch Two Half-Hitches)!


--dl*
====

xarax

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Re: 2-wrap Timber hitch
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2015, 04:25:13 PM »
TIB isn't what I expect to need, want, or use.

...or can deliver:)  TIB-ness never does any harm - what does, is the "sour grapes" approach, which, at the very end, claims that there are as many knots as the different needs, wishes, or uses for them.
  I do not agree with that - if a knot can deliver as much as another, and, on top of that, be TIB as well, it is a better = more versatile knot, regardless if one is going to need, want or use this property. At the end of the day, a "knot" that can be "unknotted" without what we usually expect, un-tucking the ends, is a marvellous thing, per se. When I watch a tightly woven tangle degenerate into the simplest thing in the world, the straight line ( or vice versa, the simplest thing in the world being transformed into a solid, globular, interwoven mass of rope ), I can not but enjoy this magic event !
     
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 05:17:11 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: 2-wrap Timber hitch
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2015, 07:08:21 PM »
TIB isn't what I expect to need, want, or use.

...or can deliver:)  TIB-ness never does any harm - what does, is the "sour grapes" approach, which, at the very end, claims that there are as many knots as the different needs, wishes, or uses for them.
  I do not agree with that - if a knot can deliver as much as another, and, on top of that, be TIB as well, it is a better = more versatile knot, regardless if one is going to need, want or use this property. At the end of the day, a "knot" that can be "unknotted" without what we usually expect, un-tucking the ends, is a marvellous thing, per se. When I watch a tightly woven tangle degenerate into the simplest thing in the world, the straight line ( or vice versa, the simplest thing in the world being transformed into a solid, globular, interwoven mass of rope ), I can not but enjoy this magic event !
Rather than "enjoy", you denigrate anything that isn't
TIB and repeat supposed benefits of the quality so much
that you "should be sick & tired" of it!  The bowline has been
used a lot and long time and I don't think that its users are
going to run happily after a TIB version such as was
presented long ago in Knotting Matters and also here,
and which knots carry some claim to greater security.

Esp. for those hitching to a tree, the TIB cow hitch
variants have no use, no application, no point.
(Conceivably, a form-&-toss-over-top-of-pile tying
might be valuable for that, and might though NOT
be TIB, but just entail some simple use of the
tail, in common circumstances.

And in other cases, folks might indeed prefer a non-TIB[<<= PET]
knot, such as at climbing walls, leaving a (pre-made/relic)
fig.8 to quicken the tying-in of the next climber
--just thread into harness, then "rethread" into nub,
and not have to do the whole, PET tying of some complicated
secure bowline.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 06:07:03 PM by Dan_Lehman »

xarax

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Re: 2-wrap Timber hitch
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2015, 07:49:37 PM »
a TIB version such as was presented long ago in Knotting Matters and also here.

  I do not know what are you talking about - WHICH TIB version, of WHiCH knot ? WHERE in Knotting Matters ?
  If you have seen this 2-wraps Timber hitch somewhere, you should better share this knowledge with us, and not just be cryptic, to make some impression ( to whom ? ).
  Did you had to think about a tree:) :) :) Was nt a simple ring a thing that could cross your mind ?  :)

   I had said that, IFF I can tie a non-TIB knot, or a TIB knot, I would prefer the TIB knot, EVEN if I could not, or would not, tie it in-the bight - because most of the times I can, and I will, and so, with experience and repetition, I will happen to know this single, versatile knot better, tie it faster, dress it and inspect it more easily, like it more. We have discussed about this many times recently - and you pretend to ignore the ceteris paribus condition, that I always set.
   So, present me a "better" secure bowline than the Ampersand bowline, for example (*), which will do something better ( be more secure, more quickly tied and more easily inspected ), but the price we have to pay for this supposedly better quality is that it is NOT TIB.
   Present me a 2-wrap hitch that will grip the pole tighter, and "lock" both its ends more securely, than the Locked Cow hitch EEL, for example, but the price we have to pay for this supposedly better quality of it is that it is not TIB. ( And, please, do not show this ugly tangly of yours you dared to show some time ago, or repeat the same lesson about the mediocre ossel hitch...)
   I, too, have to repeat ( because repetition is the mother of learning...) : IFF the TIB knot can do everything that the non-TIB does, and because it can do something more ( that is, it can be tied in-the-bight, and perhaps more quickly than in-the-end ), we would prefer the TIB knot. Oh, my knotGod...

   If you can not, and as long as you will not, I will continue to claim that your whining about the TIBness issue is just another "sour grapes"-like attitude...

(*) If you believe that the required just ONE ( =1) tuck more than the common bowline, makes the Ampersand TIB bowline, or, for that matter, the Scot s TIB bowline, "complicated"(sic), as you say, you should better ride this wormhole more effectively, and travel further into the past !  :) :)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 08:00:12 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: 2-wrap Timber hitch
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2015, 08:05:51 PM »
folks might indeed prefer a non-TIB knot... leaving a (pre-made/relic) fig.8[/I...

  Just for the record ( of mistakes...): A TIB knot CAN be untied, in its part that is tied after the eye ( post eye ), and still have, and leave unknotted, a "relic" knot in the Standing part before the eye ( ante eye )...
  TIBnesss has no relation to PETness ! ! ! ( neither non-TIB-ness, to non-PET-ness )
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 09:03:57 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: 2-wrap Timber hitch
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2015, 06:51:01 PM »
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 07:40:17 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: 2-wrap Timber hitch
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2015, 08:16:54 PM »
Ah, Bushby's lovely pen!

IMO, that "Killick/-eg/..." hitch, combination of
a timber hitch + half-hitch, usually oriented so as to be
seen alternatively as a cow hitch with a "dogged" tail,
is presented in a misleading way and (so) misunderstood:
IMO, the knot components should be as snugly set
as possible, to be secure around an object dropped
into water (where, we might presume, the natural-fibre
cordage will swell and further jam-tighten the binding).
It doesn't make sense to me that such an open structure
--where one rightly sees it as one knot and then another--
would be used in that task, and could work reliably.

Now, for hauling or dropping timber, yes, separation IS
made and wanted --the leading, half-hitch bites/grips
and pulls/directs the longish object, and the timber hitch
secures the end.  (Arborists might substitute a running bowline
for the timber hitch.)


--dl*
====

KC

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Re: 2-wrap Timber hitch
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2016, 03:33:50 PM »
   I had never understood why people like the Timber hitch
.
Please sir, i think there are times and places for Timber hitch, as well as many lessons in it's simplicity as a basic hitch. 
.
The minimal usage of line/contact with host/load in possibly  dirty/dangerous/production/tight/time $ensitive etc conditions, with short/stiff/'nasty' lines (or some nasty mixed cocktail of all of the above) then perhaps dragged thru worse before dealing with taking whatever hitching off;  make this minimal , 'loose braid eye splice' very valuable; w/many lessons perhaps more easily viewable in it's bare simplicity.  Mr. Ashley almost starts his whole chapter_21 on working class hitches in their proper perpendicular pull to spars with the humble Timber.  Perhaps there were more uses in stiffer, larger natural fibre ropes of his time too though i guess.
.
Always and all ways, i try to keep/modify/rate the engineered lacing for pure inline-ness in several ways, to best nip, and this stabilizing/softening of deformation/secondary load support leg effect of upgrading a simple Turn to a full Round Turn around sPart; while the RT around sPart has as much 'force flow' /usable line tension available to give the effect.  So would only take simple Turn around host spar before RT around sPart, not be hero and give RT around spar 1st or loses effect/doesn't have the power of the usable line tension in RT to grip sPart(dLehman lesson).  Just as the effect would be lost using half hitches around sPart, or if the RT(force flow) went inside turn around spar, to make a  like a dbl.HH (force stop).
.
i think of both the Timber and Cow as extensions of a Backhand Hitch; which in turn if mounted on a caribeener host is a Muenter Hitch. A Bight  reeved thru Backhand Hitch becomes simple noose/ marline.  But all spawning form base Backhand Hitch are mechanically confined to only what they inherit/ what forces etc. (and line length) left over after parent Backhand Hitch is made.  So all examinations of upgrading simple turn to a full/Round Turn, giving 'pedigree' , half hitch finishes, etc. Where logical, but then some losses define differences, as backhand class mostly if pull both ends, pulls on diff. Sides of host, but as progresses to Cow, pull both ends/girth hitch and the pulls are on same side of host spar/rope etc.  A simple Turn + HH seems parent  to Backhand, especially when HH reaches for more proper /higher tension nip points; but in practice i think of HH low nip around sPart as separate and more related to preceding HH (like Marl positioning) , and HH's with better nips (what Ashley calls fig.8 hitch #1666, or highest nip HH, or even slipped where the slip is the fig.8 cross over or just any spacer to better nip) as more related to Backhand Hitch. 
.
Ashley points out these are right angle pull hitches, we need to add HH for Killik for pulls along the column of a spar or other rope etc. another simple/down and dirty working lacing(with own lessons) to modify the primary hitch's angle of pull properly and give another grip point, this family pattern extends also to pulls along /not across the column of a spar or even the column of another rope/ as in friction hitches.  In all cases i measure, rate, adjust working hitches to a force flow pure inline with rope device model as maximum strength, nip, holding.  For pulls along column that takes a HH/s or Marl/s modifier at lead/nose of pull, then another strategy after of leveraged pulled hitch (at lower loading) or turns/coils etc.
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples.
~ Please excuse the interruption; thanx -the mgmt.~

Dan_Lehman

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Re: 2-wrap Timber hitch
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2016, 07:32:08 PM »

Ashley points out these are right angle pull hitches,
we need to add HH for Killik
It's my belief that the proper attribution for this
variously named/spelled knot is to a compact knot
whose raison d'etre is to stay tied while hitched
to anchoring stones --that the *backhanded* turn,
so to speak, serves qua *collar* and nips parts (S.Part
and turned-back tail) adequately esp. in natural-fibre
(and swelling in water?) cordage to keep things together.

Exploded drawings might be --per my belief-- how this
surmised compact structure came to be often shown
as well-separated components.  (And, in an odd way,
going in reverse direction I think that it might be that
originally well-spaced nipping loops of the water bowline
came to be shown close together such that it would
be proper to call it a "clove-hitch bowline" !!)   ???

Quote
For pulls along column that takes a HH/s or Marl/s modifier at lead/nose of pull,
then another strategy after of leveraged pulled hitch (at lower loading) or turns/coils etc.
Rather than a separate component to tackle the
more parallel loading, a simple round turn can give
good grip on such rough-surfaced things as trees,
and a couple turns will start to resemble some kind
of gripping hitch, when loaded --the sort of result of
"wrap 3, pull 2" though "pull 1" leaves the unpulled
wraps to grip.
 ;)

--dl*
====

KC

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Re: 2-wrap Timber hitch
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2016, 03:07:20 AM »
i'm playing with showing this better as another version of always reaching for inline.
.
i quote Ashley from the beginning of chapter_22:pulls along spar "is about the most that can be asked of a hitch" .
Commonly precede with HH around spar, rather than S.Part; or yes RT/coils; theory extending into friction hitches pulling likewise down the column of a host line, rather than host spar; then onto fishing knots with even more coil/turns, but still trying to get some kind of inline strategy by coil or HH around host spar/rope/hook/monofil etc.
.
Timber in actual heavy, dirty usage.  You might have all you can do to poke a rake thru under a log 1x for Timber, then slip HH like sock over nose that is off the ground due to taper/or at least easier to leverage up end for HH than center for Timber.   Sometimes HH around a strong branch stob.
.
Most ragged end/piece of downgraded line would be on Timber end/part; taking most abuse.  Sometimes HH has sheet bend or caribeener connection to line for Timber.  Dragging less critical than overhead or climbing work.
.
The farther from the 1st HH is from the center of gravity of spar, the straighter it drags generally(other friction dragging points can throw this off).
.
To me Timber great lesson in a 'loose' splice, several nips; pattern repeats in other lacings.
Ashley notes can go down to 3 Turns, 2 if use fig.8/overpass previous to 1st Turn.
i'm thinking should always go for best nip, other turns just tension reducers and spacers to real Nip point/opposite/inline with pull.
2 Turns seems especially light in dragging, also.
But, mostly, Ashley was working with/envisioning natural 3 strand with higher frictions to hold and could bed down then Nip points on the Turns into the lay of the line also.  We don't have these 2 factors in today's lines generally.
.
A few pictures later; still in the start of chapter_21 right/correct angle of pulls(22 being incorrect angle and the modifiers needed(?)); we see the 'RT on the S.Part adds materially to the strength of the knot.' lesson.   
If your just trying to get thru all the knots to say you did it; that's all you end up with.
i think the side comments are the real lessons, the knots shown just the present form they take.   
He's starting a specific chapter, with specific examples of principles of all to follow(and then some), not really showing so much how to tie a different HH...  The presentation and  order is more well thought out than that.
.
How mad do you think Mrs. Abok got when he had all those pictures stacked across her dining table, trying to sort and categorize  how many 1000's down to the best 7000pix of what he didn't lose somehow? :o
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples.
~ Please excuse the interruption; thanx -the mgmt.~