Author Topic: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot  (Read 14611 times)

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2015, 07:39:04 PM »
   Your knotted specimens have a ShakeHandsEsque appearance. Do you starch them, or pin them, to maintain their shape before photographing?
   What I get is a knot which is not as neat, compact, nor as pretty as your images suggest.

   Perhaps because you tie it in-the-end, and you have not tied it so many times to feel how much you should pull each string ?
   Tie it in-the-bight, following the simple, straightforward method I had shown, and you will see that it takes the correct form much more easily.
   No, I do not do any such magic trick !  :) :) I just DRESS it correctly. Knots, among other things, should be dressed ( or not ?  :) :) :) )     

Can you tell me why I should choose your Plait Loop over the Farmers Loop for any task.
What advantage does P have over F?

   Starting from a secondary, but still important feature, which is obvious to me, but I understand that it may be not so obvious to others :
   The P has a pattern - the only F s pattern is the shape of a farmer s , or a farmer cow s, you know what !  :) :)
   Knots that have a pattern, can me memorised and remembered more easily ( because the human mind works that way...), and, more importantly, can be inspected more easily ! Any mistake would be like a fly in the ointment, because it will destroy the pattern of the plait, and will generate the pattern of the s... instead...
   Now, the two loops are NOT meant to be loaded in the same way ! The P is an end-of-line loop, which is EEL : it can be loaded by the one, the other, or by both ends simultaneously. Those ends are parallel to the eyelegs ( almost - we are talking about the general case, where the loop is very elongated, i.e., not ring loaded ). The F is an in-line loop, which is meant to be tied in the middle of a more or less tensioned and straight main line, and support something hung within its loop.
   See poor old Ashley : the man has put the in-line loops the one after the other in his chapter, although his general taxonomy throughout the book is, well, Farmers s loop-like !  :) See how F s depicted, in all its drawings and its pictures : It is either loaded by one, only end ( and, in particular, the end which makes this odd fellow look as much less rickety as possible...), or by both ends, which, because of that, point to almost opposite directions.
   You have to examine the F a little more carefully, and see that it is not symmetric regarding its two ends : it behaves differently, and it takes a different shape and orientation, if it is hung by the one or by the other end. ( the same happens with many of Ashley s in-line loops ). The continuations of the two Standing Ends inside the nub follow entirely different paths, they distribute the tensile forces entirely differently. On the contrary, the P is just two interlinked crossing knots, the one above the other ! It is, and it "works" so, as a crossing knot-based end-of-line knot, independently of the Standing End from which it would be hung. It ia also not-symmetric, of course, but if you examine it a little you will see that the continuations of both Standing Ends follow almost identical, geometrically, paths, and, when they will be loaded, they will be loaded in almost the same way. The fact that the one crossing knot is "above" the other, or more near to the corresponding Standing End, and the other "below", more far from it, does not mean that they will behave differently.
   With P, you have an easily inspected loop, which "works" in the same way when it is loaded by any of its two ends, and which way is transparent, easily understood and well known : all crossing-knot-based bowlines ( the "Eskimo" bowlines included ) work in this way. I tried to figure out a loop that is truly EEL, works (almost) in the same way when it is loaded by the one or the other end, and it is PET-2 - and P was the result. I had NOT tried to tie an in-line loop - because, to my view, we already have the great Butterfly loop - and I had already tied such loops, as the Sheepshank loop, for example (1). Please, notice that I call the Sheepshank loop, as loop, meaning an in-line loop, and not as a "bowline", because the Sheepshank bowline, presented in the same thread, is clearly a different knot !
   You may have been misled in this matter, because the Butterfly loop is so stable, that retains its shape, more or less, when it is loaded / used as an in-line loop, and as an end-of-line loop. As you can see now, this is not the case with the P and the F, and the Sheepshank loop and bowline. The knots are very different geometrically, they "work" differently, I am SURE they will have different properties regarding slippage, strength and jamming - in short, they are different structures, and, to me, knots are structures, not shapes ! 
   Also, as you may had noticed, the Plait loop was meant to replace the Pet loop, which is also a crossing knot-based TIB loop ( better, to my view, than the Span loop ), but it is not very satisfactory as EEL, and it is not PET-2. One may see the Plait loop as a "double" / "two-ends"  Pet loop (3).
   Last, but not least : Do you ask ME about "applications" ?  :) :) :)
   As I have said time and again, I do not give a Farmer s s... for applications ! To me, the "purpose" of a knot is to remain "knotted" under load. Then, IFF and WHEN this is achieved, somebody, at some point of space and time, in this planet or elsewhere, may "use" this knot - but, most probably, I will not be around to see what will happen !  :) :)
   Enjoy an easily tied in-the-bight TIB loop ( we have many good TIB loops, which, unfortunately, can NOT be tied in-the bight easily - or we do not know how to tie them as such yet...), easily inspected, good looking from its "front" view (2), and almost symmetrically "working" if/when it is loaded by either end.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4680
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5084.msg34751#msg34751
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 07:36:54 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2015, 08:03:01 PM »
   I discovered long ago how to tie the Farmers Loop using the Fig.8 method, and the Bowline-like (aka Circus Bowline) method for an end-of-line loop.

   I do not know any of those methods... I know only the "magic" million-times-parroted Riley s method, shown by Ashley, which is so ugly, conceptually, as the Farmer s loop is ugly, visually... Post them in a thread, so we can see if they are as simple as the method I suggest for the Plait loop ( which does NOT generate the Farmer s loop, even if we try to distort it towards this way...)
   Perhaps you can figure out another, better TIB method for the Plait loop, too ?
This is not a knot.

alpineer

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2015, 02:58:23 AM »
Have a look at ABoK #1056. Ashley says it's similar to the Farmer's Loop. It's similar alright. In fact it's identical.

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2015, 07:35:20 AM »
Have a look at ABoK #1056. Ashley says it's similar to the Farmer's Loop. It's similar alright. In fact it's identical.

   I see many of those loops as Samisen bends turned into loops :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4890

   Also, I said that the Plait loop may be seen as a variation of the ABoK#1055 loop, but you are right in this - it may also be seen as a variation of the ABoK#1056 loop, simply because ABoK#1055 and ABoJ#1056 can be considered as variations of each other... :)
...one can reach it from many different starting posts : it is a modified Englishman s knot, a re-tucked TIB Samisen bowline, a "Span bend" turned into an eyeknot, a variation of the ABoK#1055, etc.

   However, I can not see how one can tie the Plait loop in-the-bight in a way similar to the way Ashley ties the ABoK#1055 - ABoK#1056 - although I suspect there should / might be a similar way...
   Perhaps Luca will save me here, again...
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2015, 07:48:15 AM »
I can not see how one can tie the Plait loop in-the-bight in a way similar to the way Ashley ties the ABoK#1055 - ABoK#1056 - although I suspect there should / might be a similar way...

Now I Do !  :) :) :) :) :)

   Alpineer, you should be as blind as I am !  :) :) Just "halter" the "lower" collar of the ABoK#1056 all the way to the top, so it becomes the 'higher/upper" collar - and the ABoK#1056 becomes the Plait loop instantly !
   I knew that the one could be a variation of the other, I suspected that there should be a tying method in-the bight to tie the Plait loop in a way similar to the way Ashley tied the ABoK#1056, but it never crossed my mind to "push" the "lower" collar of the ABok#1056 as far as it can go upwards !  :) :) I will edit my previous posts to tell this simple thing ( which perhaps Luca would had told me the very first minute... )
   
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 08:29:42 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alpineer

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2015, 09:18:56 AM »
Alpineer, you should be as blind as I am !  :) :) 
??? ??? I'm sorry, what do you mean by saying this?

Just "halter" the "lower" collar of the ABoK#1056 all the way to the top, so it becomes the 'higher/upper" collar - and the ABoK#1056 becomes the Plait loop instantly !
Been There, Done That a while back.

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2015, 09:37:27 AM »
Been There, Done That a while back.

  I am NOT interested in archaeology:) If you do, consult Dan Lehman, who had tied every knot that exists in the Univers ( and then some ) - during the 19th century !  :) :)
  When I am talking about a "new" knot, I mean only a knot which has not been published before - and I have said it about 12 x 12 times by now in this Forum ! ( If you love to talk about who did what first, and his was better, bigger, etc..., talk to the younger members of the Forum, who imagine some female audience, I guess  :) :), or the not-so-young members who wish to complete their Nobel prizes collection !  :) )
   I mean, you should had told me right from the very first post : Tie this loop as Ashley ties the ABoK#1056, just "push" the "lower" collar to the top of the nub, to become its "higher" collar !
   Now, can you see and tell me if the Plait loop can capsize to the ABoK#1056, or vice versa ? Because if any of the two can, they should be considered as a variation of the other (  and be named by the same name ? ). If they can not, they are two "bistable knots".
   Do you prefer ABoK s TIB method for tying this loop ( the Plait loop ) from the method I show at Reply#19 :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5288.msg34783#msg34783
 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 02:29:36 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alpineer

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2015, 10:18:15 AM »
You haven't answered the question in my previous post yet. I'm asking for understanding.

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2015, 10:33:04 AM »
   I do not understand which was the question !  :)
   Take a look at the Plait loop - in the Wild... No strings attached !  :) ( I took the pictures a few minutes ago ).
   ( I have tied it on slippery ropes, as this caving one, I had tied it on marine ropes, it always pops out the same. I do not know what you do, and you can not tie it like this...)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 10:34:26 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2015, 11:11:58 AM »
   The Plait loop, tied on paracord ( which has not a very round inner core / cross section, and can not follow very smooth curves when it makes sharp turns ). I believe that the general plait pattern is as instantly visible and as easily inspected here, as in any other material .
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 11:24:34 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #70 on: May 20, 2015, 11:41:51 PM »
   As Alpineer indicated, the Plait loop can also be tied with the TIB method shown by Ashley for the ABoK#1056, and by re-dressing the outcome further. One may argue that following this method is a faster and easier way to tie it, than the way shown at Reply#19 (1) - which, although less "instantaneous", is nevertheless more clear and straightforward  conceptually : no "magic" tricks involved !
    However, if we try to tie the corresponding end-of-line loop of the in-line ABoK#1056, we end with the loop(s) shown in :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5347.0
   If this loop ( or loops, because this ugly tangly is not even stable when loaded by either end...) shown there, has/have ANY relation whatsoever to the Plait loop, I leave it to the judgment of the reader.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5288.msg34783#msg34783
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 11:43:34 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.