Author Topic: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot  (Read 19041 times)

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2015, 12:05:11 AM »
 In a sense, nothing matters in a practical knot - any "job" which a practical knot can do, can be done by a series of three-four half hitches or overhand knots in a row... The knot tyers should only spend a few more seconds, to tie the universal all-purpose tangle, and that will be all. Ropes are the cheaper things of all the costs required in any outdoors activity they are used : So, just cut off some portion of the end of the line which has a jammed or difficult to untie knot, and when the rope will become too short, buy a new one ! You want to release or retrieve a loop, and you worry about the" relic" knot ? Do not ! Just cut the segment of the rope where the loop is tied, and in the blink of an eye you get a nice, sleek unknotted line !  :)
   The additional versatility, structural coherence and functional simplicity of a loop, which is already TIB, PET-1 and EEL, offered by being also PET -2, to my eyes at least, is self-evident. However, many things I happen to consider self-evident ( that the Plait loop and the Farmer s loop are two veeery different knots, for example, and that it is the geometry which determines the structural properties of a knot, the way it "works", and not the topology ), are not self-evident to other knot tyers - because practical knotting is not a science, and, as in art, it is very easy to somebody ( and anybody ) to say his own thing - most of the times for his own obscure reasons, which have nothing to do with the knots themselves. ( Many posts in this thread are telling, regarding that...)
    ( If the Butterfly loop was THE perfect loop, the Holy Grail of TIB loops, we would nt lose our time tying other lops, and discussing about them ( hopefully - because I have not read many things about the Plait loop itself, as a knot, in this thread... but I can not say that I was surprized ! Years of experience !  :) ). Fortunately or unfortunately, it is not. It is much less perfect, in its role, than the Zeppelin bend, for example - and we have to keep that the existence of the Zeppelin bend has not deterred knot tyers of tying dozens of dozens other bends. )
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 03:39:05 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

agent_smith

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2015, 12:15:03 AM »
Quote
Ok, what about this: The middle climber of 3 is tied-in with a Butterfly Loop.

Technically, a climber would not be 'tied-in'... a climber would need to 'clip-in'. That is, the connective eye of the Butterfly knot is attached via 2 locking carabiners to the harness (second carabiner adds redundancy/insurance).

A challenge I will throw to this forum is to devise a tying method of attaching the Butterfly knot connective eye directly to the harness without need for carabiners.

Now I have indeed devised a method - but it involves making the eye of the Butterfly elongated (sort of into a long bight segment) and then 'retracing' that bight back through the central nub and then terminating it with a figure 8 eye knot and clipping that eye to the harness. It works well and isn't all that complicated. It retains the bi-axial loading capability of the knot.

However, I'd like to discover a method that does not require carabiners and retains the simplicity of the original Butterfly connective eye knot.

SS369

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2015, 12:23:56 AM »
I personally am interested in exploring new knots, even if they don't become part of my tool box of knots. I use so few, but those are used often because they work for me. But, I'll not limit myself, my curiosity, just because it may not be practical (right now). Sometimes the voyage is worth the time and what one can learn during it is immeasurable.

A knot being TIB, PET, EEL, PETEE, (I totally dislike acronyms!) all or not matters little in life's general scheme. But for pure knot tying aficionados, this is an interesting concept.
There may come a instance where a new knot may be desirable or lead to another. That sort of what the IGKT is about.
And I hope we don't soon find the Holy Grail of knots.
Knot life will become truly dull.

SS

SS369

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2015, 12:41:01 AM »
Quote
Ok, what about this: The middle climber of 3 is tied-in with a Butterfly Loop.

Technically, a climber would not be 'tied-in'... a climber would need to 'clip-in'. That is, the connective eye of the Butterfly knot is attached via 2 locking carabiners to the harness (second carabiner adds redundancy/insurance).

A challenge I will throw to this forum is to devise a tying method of attaching the Butterfly knot connective eye directly to the harness without need for carabiners.

Now I have indeed devised a method - but it involves making the eye of the Butterfly elongated (sort of into a long bight segment) and then 'retracing' that bight back through the central nub and then terminating it with a figure 8 eye knot and clipping that eye to the harness. It works well and isn't all that complicated. It retains the bi-axial loading capability of the knot.

However, I'd like to discover a method that does not require carabiners and retains the simplicity of the original Butterfly connective eye knot.


Good day agent_smith.
For a climbing scenario I would probably tie an unimaginative knot. Probably some loop using a bight. I can think of a few that will untie easy enough after a severe load.
Even as the attached photo.

SS

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2015, 01:36:59 AM »
   And I hope we don't soon find the Holy Grail of knots.
   Knot life will become truly dull.

  I agree, 100% !  :)  :)
  And along with knot life, life itself will become less colourful... ( = more B&W...). 
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2015, 01:41:13 AM »
an unimaginative knot.

  This carabineer there will make the fig.8 loop always easy to untie... Perhaps you should pass it through the upper part of the "8" as well.
This is not a knot.

roo

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2015, 01:43:55 AM »
Quote
Ok, what about this: The middle climber of 3 is tied-in with a Butterfly Loop.

Technically, a climber would not be 'tied-in'... a climber would need to 'clip-in'. That is, the connective eye of the Butterfly knot is attached via 2 locking carabiners to the harness (second carabiner adds redundancy/insurance).

A challenge I will throw to this forum is to devise a tying method of attaching the Butterfly knot connective eye directly to the harness without need for carabiners.

Now I have indeed devised a method - but it involves making the eye of the Butterfly elongated (sort of into a long bight segment) and then 'retracing' that bight back through the central nub and then terminating it with a figure 8 eye knot and clipping that eye to the harness. It works well and isn't all that complicated. It retains the bi-axial loading capability of the knot.

However, I'd like to discover a method that does not require carabiners and retains the simplicity of the original Butterfly connective eye knot.

Diverting to a new topic:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5304.msg35013#msg35013
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


Mobius

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2015, 04:05:33 AM »
   If PET doesn't matter, then PET2 certainly won't.

   So, after much thinking, you felt/concluded that the only way to deny the usefulness of the PET-2, is to deny the usefulness of the PET -1 itself ?  :)

LOL  ;D If by 'much thinking' you mean the 5 mins I spent reading the forum and replying before work this morning then you are right. And, you missed the point about PET2: I could have used your 'Plait Loop' as the middle climber 'clip-in' (sorry, tie-in was the wrong word in my other post).

Tell me why the PET2 property of the Plait Loop has any relevance in this case!? You are going to have to convince me that the middle climber is going to want to untie himself from his biner by using an end and not just un-clip himself and untie the loop in the normal reversal of the TIB method.

Cheers,

Mobius

(spending another 'much thinking' 5 mins to write this from work)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 04:29:30 AM by mobius »

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2015, 05:59:44 AM »
   If one wants something that "has relevance" in each and every case, in all cases, the real and the imaginary ones, I believe I know something that may satisfy this need... It is called "KnotGod" !  :)  :) :)
   On each special case one will present, where the PET-2 is not required, I will present another one, where it will ! This way we are all going to go mad very soon...  :)
   The beauty of knots, is that they are tools with a very wide spectrum of applications - moreover, those applications change in time, and who knows what will happen in the future... Let us imagine the poor fellow who discovered the wheel, to have to answer to all those who were telling him that this "thing" is not going far - and what would had happened, if he was trying to find counter-examples in each and every example of a case where the wheel would just be stuck in the mud, the sand, etc... :)
   We have to think in general terms - the most general knots are the more versatile, and so the most useful.
   Ceteris paribus, TIB knots can do all that non-TIB can, and then some, and if we find something that a TIB, EEL, and PET-2 knot CAN NOT DO ( other than coffee...), then we will see...
   It is a great thing to tie a knot without paying any attention to which end goes where, by which end it is going to be loaded now or at any time in the future, and by which end you should untie it then, in the future, in order to be able to do this in one stage, and do not leave any "relic" knot. If we want to narrow our view, it is very easy - but we will be left with tens of  thousands of knots, each one of which will perfectly address the requirements of a particular application only, and of no other !
   As I said many times, we see, in practice, that the PET -1 loops which are loaded by the "other" end, if the knot which is tied on the continuation of this "other" end is not topologically equivalent to the unknot ( i.e., if they are not PET -2 ) will, most probably, be difficult to untie ( because "closed" knots, as the overhand knot and the fig.8 knot clinch to themselves easily, especially when they are loaded by the 100% of the load ).
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 03:30:43 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Mobius

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2015, 11:39:33 AM »
has any relevance in this case!?

   So you want something that "has relevance" in each and every case, in all cases, the real and the imaginary ones ? I believe I know something that may satisfy this need... It is called "KnotGod" !  :)  :) :)
   On each special case you will present, where the PET-2 is not required, I will present another one, where it will ! This way we are going to go mad very soon, believe me !  :)

At the risk of belabouring the issue, I think you have missed the point first raised by Dan and picked up by me. I don't think anyone is arguing against the 'Post Eye Tiable, Either End' concept, what Dan first said (I believe) was pretty much along the lines of 'why do we need an acronym (PETEE, PET-2... whatever) for a concept that has no seemingly important practical applications'? Some people state openly they don't like acronyms, and fair enough. I have said I'm ambivalent about them and can see the benefit of them in some discussions where terms like PET, TIB and (dare I say) EEL have important, relevant, everyday, applications. On the other hand, they can be painful for someone new (like me) to negotiate properly.

So since I gave you a practical case where PETEE was irrelevant, you (xarax) might be able to give us one practical application where it is. I made up one rather implausible one myself in an earlier post, it should be better than that please ;)

Quote
   The beauty of knots, is that they are tools with a very wide spectrum of applications - moreover, those applications change in time, and who knows what will happen in the future... Imagine the poor fellow who discovered the wheel, to have to answer to all those who were telling him that this "thing" is not going far - and what would had happened, if he was trying to find counter-examples in each and every example of a case where the wheel would just be stuck in the mud, the sand, etc... :)

Sorry, I think we don't just start using acronyms willy-nilly. PET, TIB, SPart... EEL (probably) will stay I'm guessing since those concepts are not only useful, they have practical day-to-day applications that come up in discussions regularly. Does PETEE, or will PETEE do the same? Maybe when 'applications change in time, and who knows what will happen in the future' those who don't like acronyms might have to suffer it, however not now is my thinking.

Quote
   Think in general terms - the most general knots are the more versatile, and so the most useful.

Sure, however that does not mean we have to invent an acronym for every concept that 'might' be useful  :P

Cheers,

mobius

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2015, 02:01:08 PM »
  As I have said a thousand ( at least... :) ) times, personally, I do nt give a s... about "seemingly important practical applications" - because I do nt give a s... about what "seems" like being something, but in fact it is not, I do nt give a s... about the supposed "importance" of something, like practical knots, for example  :), when millions of children die out of thirst (and hunger, of course ), I do nt give a s... about "practical" things when they do not do not save or really improve lives, and I do not give a s... about "applications", without some of which nothing would had been really worse - and many things would be much better !  :)  Imagine that we had not invented explosives, and fire arms, and nuclear bombs... Chemistry and nuclear physics are always great things, while their "applications" are sometimes, well, just massively lethal.
   On a more balanced tone, the number and of the practical applications is not carved in any plates given to us by God, it is not frozen in time. "The future is not ours to see" (*). Moreover, a knot which offers something more, can wake up evolution, and make a new practical application "emerge" out of nothing - just as new practical applications may make us tie "new" knots. Also, the simple knots should always be examined simply as simple knots, without worrying about any relation they might or they might not have, about any application at all. Just this day, after three and a half YEARS,  I have seen in a class of knot I have been tying all this time, something so f... obvious, which I should had seen in three and a half SECONDS !  :) So, yes, I understand what to examine a knot per se means, and how stupid you can be, and remain so, if you do not...

  I had been in situations where I was not sure about which end goes where, which end should better remain attached somewhere and which end could be used to untie in-the-end a secure bowline... The moment you get the EEL idea, as you did, you should also get the PET-2 idea... If you don't, well, then you are in the same situation as I were, when I had not realize the importance of a TIB knot being EEL as well - and the pity, the versatility / opportunity lost, of a TIB knot that is not EEL, although it could well have been tied just a little bit differently, and become EEL. 
   I know the game which some people want to play in this Forum, for reasons which have nothing to do with knots ! When they meet something they had never thought of ( because their mind is built for parroting, not learning ) they draw out one of their concealed weapons, the "practicality", they start mumbling about specific materials, specific loadings, specific knotting environments and "problems", references they do not cite, things they have seen "in the Wild", and so on. In other words, they try to "kill" in its infancy the very idea, the concept itself, by questioning the "importance" of all the "practical applications", in this and in any other possible past or future Universe !
   I happen to "see" the importance of a already PET-1 loop, which is EEL, to be PET-2 as well - but I do not expect that everybody else will ! I have seen the importance of the fact that the Zeppelin bend is a rope-made hinge, and of the fact that the opposing bights locking mechanism does not depend on the number of times the locked tail passes in between them, and the fact that most PET-1 loops can be untied easily because they are PET -1 ( that is, because the knot tied on the Standing Part before the eye is topologically equivalent to the unknot, so it is not an overhand or a fig.8 knot ), and most non-PET -1 loops can not be untied easily because they are not PET-1 ( as the fake, so-called "Zeppelin loop" ). However, I do not expect the knot tyers of this generation, grown up in an environment full of knotting myths, "magic" tying tricks, silly names, and dumb tying recipes, would ever become able to abandon their hobbits and their beliefs, and question the fact that they were so blind so long... 
   When I do discover how stupid I have been, as I did today  :), I do not attempt to hide this fact under the rug ! On the contrary, I try to utilize it, and examine what was the cause of this stupidity, and what is the cause of the stupidity of people, in general, regarding some things, while they are so clever regarding some other things... I was stupid I had not realized the importance of a loop or a hitch being EEL, and I was stupid when I had not seen in 3 1/2 seconds that the Helical loops can be tied easily with zero helical turns first, and then be enhanced with any number of such turns we wish or we want/need, in-the-bight, at an instance !  Well, better later than never !
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 03:21:35 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2015, 01:28:55 AM »
The prior comments concerning correct name spelling are off topic and should be conducted via PM or email.
Please do so.
They have been removed.

SS
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 01:31:37 AM by SS369 »

xarax

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Let's forget about tomorrow, for tomorrow never comes.
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2015, 03:30:19 PM »
   May I have your attention, please.
   Farmers in this Forum are kindly requested to milk their cows first, then drink some milk, and only afterwards take a look at the loops shown at the attached picture. If, after that, they still "see" in those loops their beloved ugly-tangly Farmers a loop ( ABoK#1054)(1), they better go to sleep, and wake up again tomorrow.
    Usually, tomorrow does come (2)(3).


   P.S. The MOST funny thing about this poor ugly-tangly Farmer s loop, is the way people who had parroted Ashley since time immemorial are tying it ! I believe it can make even parrots laugh ! Enjoy :

1.start with the rope 3 times around the palm of one hand, let the ends hang down,
2.then pull the initial middle turn up from the top edge and place it over to the right
3.then pull the now new middle turn up from the top edge and place it over to the left
4.then pull the now new middle turn up from the top edge and place it over to the right
5.then pull the now new middle turn up to form the loop, dress and tighten before use

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer's_loop
2. http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/franksinatra/forgetdomani.html
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPkL7cw7J7Q
This is not a knot.

Tex

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2015, 04:08:18 PM »
Nice steps.  You just inspired me to tie one with the end of the rope again, just for fun.  ;) It looks pretty too.

alpineer

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2015, 06:48:09 PM »
I discovered long ago how to tie the Farmers Loop using the Fig.8 method, and the Bowline-like (aka Circus Bowline) method for an end-of-line loop. The Farmers Loop reminds me of an octopus...http://www.sciencenutshell.com/how-does-an-octopus-control-all-eight-arms-at-once/. They may be considered ugly, but they are amazing creatures.
Your knotted specimens have a ShakeHandsEsque appearance. Do you starch them, or pin them, to maintain their shape before photographing?
What I get is a knot which is not as neat, compact, nor as pretty as your images suggest.   

You're right, the P.Loop is definitely not the F.Loop. Can you tell me why I should choose your Plait Loop over the Farmers Loop for any task.
What advantage does P have over F?