Author Topic: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot  (Read 14609 times)

roo

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2015, 01:23:33 AM »
...the loop capsizes into the common Farmer's Loop when the loop is unloaded and the parent line sees tension.

   When "the loop is unloaded"  ? Wake up ! This is NOT an inline loop ! Does it look to you like such a loop ?
   Oh, my KnotGod, what people "notice", when they try, desperately, to deny the OBVIOUS !
   Instead, they should do something else ! Or enjoy what they are doing, as they are doing it ! ( That is what I do, with ping pong... :))
   LOOK at this loop ! I had provided many clear enough pictures, taken from different angles. Does it seems to you like an inline loop ? Does it seems like the ugly tungly Farmer s loop ?
   I tied a loop that can be loaded by EITHER end, NOT by BOTH ends AND remain unloaded in the same time ! The PET loop ( which the Plait loop replaced in my pantheon, because it is not only PET, but also PETEE ), was also meant to be such a loop, which, if it was loaded only by its ends, and remained unloaded AS A LOOP, would deform into something else.
   The fact that the Butterfly loop can do what you describe, does not mean that all loops should be able to do the same. The Butterfly loop, for example, is not PETEE, not even PET ( because it is two merged slipped overhand knots ), and so becomes difficult to untie after heavy loading.

   Surely you must have experienced this by now... :) :) :)

( Note : I had said it once again, but I will not say it again ! THERE IS NO "PARENT LINE" IN THIS LOOP ! It is symmetric, in structure and function of both the crossing knot that make it, and their limbs )
I think this is as close as we're going to get to xarax admitting that the loop is a form of the Farmer's Loop. 

Aside from this, the very fact that the loop is presented as tied-in-the-bight and either-end loadable indicates that there is plenty of rope going in both directions that could therefore easily transmit tension before the loop sees load, even if this tension is unintentional, again causing the loop to assume its Farmer's Loop origin.
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Tex

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2015, 01:44:06 AM »
  Personally, I can not tell, because I do not know how other people "see" it... I do not ignore that experienced knot tyers, as Alpineer, enhaut and roo, were misled and believed it is identical to the Farmer s loop -
 
Rather than calling it "identical", people have noticed that the loop capsizes into the common Farmer's Loop when the loop is unloaded and the parent line sees tension, as often happens in applications involving midline loops. 

Surely you must have experienced this by now.

I never noticed anywhwere where anyone in any comment seemed unable to recognize the different forms as at least differences in dressing.  At most there was disagreement about the significance of the difference, either at a given moment or on the whole due to things like this capsizing. I find xarax's false implication that anyone could not distinguish them, using this to defend his justification for arrogance and assumptions about the thoughts of others, I found it to be a backhanded jab at others weakly disguised as a compliment (maybe because even this, being better than greats, helps his own ego all the more).

« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 01:52:21 AM by Tex »

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2015, 01:46:42 AM »
I think this is as close as we're going to get to xarax admitting that the loop is a form of the Farmer's Loop.

  It is not - as the Farmer s loop is not a form of the Plait loop, as you should say, if you believe in what you say !
  You have not understood a thing about what I am saying all this time - difference of "topology" and "geometry", remember ? :)
  If you can not distinguish between them, ask Tex to help you  :).
  I wonder, do you consider yourself "a form of" Ashley ?  :) The same kind of atoms, recombined in a slightly different way...

...there is plenty of rope going in both directions that could therefore easily transmit tension before the loop sees load, even if this tension is unintentional, again causing the loop to assume its Farmer's Loop origin.

  What one can discover ( or should I say : invent ), if he tries as hard as you to persuade himself !  :)
  The previous sentence is monumental ! A great piece of knotting litterature !
  I dedicate it to Tex !  :) :) :) His neural networks would be able to digest its nonsense ( even if they can not digest his hormones), I am sure !
   (  Just edit it a little bit, because the word "directions", the last time I looked at Google s translator, means something else... Both ends are going to / coming from the same direction. Wake up, or stop pretending you "see" things that do not exist ! The ends of this loop go to the same direction, it is not an inline loop, tied in the middle of a tensioned line, where the eye can be loaded, or not. ) 
  Oh, my KnotGod !
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 04:39:30 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Tex

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2015, 02:00:36 AM »
What is the point of a knot being tie-able (un-tiable) from either end without a relic, if it is only to be tied in (at/near) the end of the rope (but never with the end of the rope, unless you're a knot god like xarax)?  Why, if I have the tail in my hand, would I ever untie the knot using the standing end, and if for some reason I did, then how could I still possibly care about the relic, being as now neither end of the rope is attached to anything, and both are now in my hands?

« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 02:17:06 AM by Tex »

roo

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2015, 03:15:43 AM »
{...]are shown with their ends going to opposite directions, people like roo insist that ALL loops should be like this, and loaded like this, and there can be no other loop different than them...
::) Once again, I did not say this. 
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xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2015, 07:40:06 AM »
   You did not say anything ( that makes sense...) !
   You wrote this nonsense :
people have noticed that the loop capsizes into the common Farmer's Loop when the loop is unloaded and the parent line sees tension, as often happens in applications involving midline loops. 

   My Google translator tells me that "midline" is somewhere around the middle of the rope, that is, not near its ends.  It does NOT mean the middle of a straight, tensioned by both ends line, as you thought when you were young, and you were parroting ABoK#1049 - ABoK#1056...

   And you wrote ( you carved in marble !  :) ) this monumental piece of knotting litterature ( or should I call it "knotting poetry" ? ) :
   
the very fact that the loop is presented as tied-in-the-bight and either-end loadable indicates that there is plenty of rope going in both directions that could therefore easily transmit tension before the loop sees load, even if this tension is unintentional, again causing the loop to assume its Farmer's Loop origin.

   However, you have not presented the knot whose the common bowline is the "origin"(sic) of, by loading it ( the bowline ) from both ends, and forcing it to capsize, while the eye remains unloaded. If you do this, "people may notice to what common knot the common bowline capsizes into" !  :)
   Do it, for the left-handed AND for the right-handed bowline... You may learn something !
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 04:38:20 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2015, 09:31:35 AM »
   I have presented many "new" knots in the "community"  :) of this Forum - and I believe that some of them are interesting (1). However, in most cases, what I had received, as a feedback, was either SILENCE ( a term describing the results of ignoring, snubbing, etc ), or irrelevant "criticism", like the nonsense I had received in this thread - together with some "polite" words of encouragement, by members of the "new" generation !
   It is amusing what people may invent, to tell their own thing, to themselves and to an absent audience ! The new case is eye-opening, indeed : Follow the "reasoning" of roo, for example : Because a TIB loop can be tied with long ends, it can be loaded by those ends at the same time, by pulling them towards opposite directions, either intentionally or by accident, while the eye is not loaded. If that happens, and this loop capsizes into something else, it is something else s "form" ! Therefore, the Plait loop ( which looks like a plait ), is but "a form" of the Farmer s loop ( which looks like the farmer s, or the farmer cow s,... whatever ). A plait is "a form" of a ...whatever ! !  :) :) By the same token, for example, the slipped overhand knot is but "a form" of the straight line ! I do not know if one can become a real knot tyer by reading those BS, but he can become a real philosopher, that is for sure ! All are One ! Peace on Earth !  :) :) :)
   The interesting thing is that those people who tell those things, pop out in the threads I initiate only when they invent such a BS, by which they believe they will force me to post only in the "Fancy and decorative" knots Forum !  :) :) Because they wish to keep the practical knots Forum as their backyard, or their store, where they can do whatever they like, or whatever makes some pathetic $, by themselves and for themselves... 
   Shifting the goalpost may be a useful manoeuvre for a politician, who wants to mislead his audience. It is NOT for a supposedly knot tyer, who, supposedly, is interested in knots as tools ! To try to convince yourself, and an non-existing audience, that a tool shaped like a plait, and a tool shaped like a ...whatever ( that is, close to "shapeless", or even worse... ), both do the same job, and that the one is "a form" of the other, is funny, but dumb nevertheless - and maliciously wrong, I would say. Who is the "stalker" of whom, I wonder... 
   
   1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5084.0
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 10:10:54 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2015, 07:19:06 PM »
Either End Loadable, or EEL ). ...
 as PET from either end, too - PETEE ( Post Eye Tiable, Either End )
I might favor "PET-2", but now see the problematic
case of PET but not-PETEE but PET & EEL.  I wonder :
why would one need PET-2 if not EEL ?  (I.e., although
you can tie it with the tail, you cannot load the tail.)
Still, one might just question "PETEE" : a possibility,
but why have it, why use it --i.e., why not tie it PET-1
and be done, the -2 unneeded.  Is one going to be given
rope coming-from-station-A such that you want -2 loading
for that, and will take finished other-end away for -1 loading
--and so you do need to tie it *backwards*, as it were?
(In contrast to just having the completed knot that
is EEL and not caring which end is which.)

IMAGES : from the side showing better the "plait",
you have done some fine decorative knotting!
(If it is better to have as many characteristics as possible,
take the eye-appeal, too, then!)
I've seen plenty of "art" of late, and can see this particular
OP triplet of images --orange on black, pale yellow on maroon,
and grey-white on charcoal-- as much more satisfying and
pleasing than a great deal of what passes as "art" (anyone
for one of Koons's Balloon Dogs, or a Hirst shark tank?
--or, just the X. backgrounds ALONE!!)  !?

Maybe where this put as a triptych with graduated tightening,
closing of an exploded image, it would enhance the repetition?!

It could hang as seen here, vertically, or horizontally.
(Separately framed, the buyer can orient as she pleases.)


 ;)

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2015, 07:30:47 PM »
  I wonder : why would one need PET-2 if not EEL ?

  Right ! So what do we do ? Should we use only PET-2, and suppose that, most of the times, it will be EEL, too ? ( Notice that it can be PET-2, but, when loaded by the "other" end, it may well become unstable, it may deform, and even slip. The most symmetric, and so EEL loop that I know, is the Tweedledee bowline, shown in the attached pictures (1) - but agent smith believes it is too complex for climbers... Also, although its nub is made from two interwoven links topologically equivalent to the unknot, their 8-shaped form bothers me a little bit - their geometry is very close to the geometry of a fig.8 knot, and so I suspect that, under heavy loading, they may clinch around each other more tightly than we would had wished.)

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3989.0
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 07:48:16 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2015, 10:45:20 PM »
...one might just question "PETEE" : a possibility, but why have it, why use it --i.e., why not tie it PET-1 and be done, the -2 unneeded.

  Imagine the eyeknot as a "relic" knot  :), tied in the middle of a loose / unloaded line at a certain time, and waiting / wanting to be loaded, by the either end, only later - in other words, the knot may be tied before it is decided how ( i.e., by which end ) it will be loaded. If we do not know in advance, for whatever reason, which end will be loaded, we can not decide relating-to-which-end it should better be tied as PET- so it would be great if it is PET regarding both ends.
  However, as I had explained in previous posts, there is yet another reason for a PETEE / PET-2 : I have seen that the knots which are not equivalent to the unknot, as the overhand knot and the fig.8 knot, under heavy loading, tend to clinch around themselves too tightly, and become difficult to untie, even of it is tied on the continuation of the returning eye leg ( as a 'collar structure" ). Therefore, to-be-sure that an eyeknot is easily untiable, it is a wise choice to avoid attaching the continuation of the returning eyeleg to the Standing par ( after / post the eye ) by an overhand knot or a fig.8 knot, or any other knot which is not topologically equivalent to the unknot, and prefer an "open" knot, which is topologically equivalent to the unknot - just as we did for the knot tied on the continuation of the Standing End ( before the eye ). If we do this, we have an eyeknot nub made from two knots interlinked to each other, which both are topologically equivalent to the unknot - that is, we have an eyeknot which is PET regarding either end. 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 10:51:04 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Mobius

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2015, 11:18:28 PM »
Either End Loadable, or EEL ). ...
 as PET from either end, too - PETEE ( Post Eye Tiable, Either End )
I might favor "PET-2", but now see the problematic
case of PET but not-PETEE but PET & EEL.  I wonder :
why would one need PET-2 if not EEL ?  (I.e., although
you can tie it with the tail, you cannot load the tail.)
Still, one might just question "PETEE" : a possibility,
but why have it, why use it --i.e., why not tie it PET-1
and be done, the -2 unneeded. 

Right, despite my involvement in developing the PETEE acronym I am not really sure the idea needs to have a shortened form.

Using my TIB bowline as an example (that no-one has seen here yet) I could image a scenario where instead of having the tail close to my right hand and tying the knot TIB I have the tail close to my left hand. I have effectively created another knot, since I have inadvertently swapped the Spart and Tail and the loading on the knot will be completely different subsequently. Presumably I might then hook my just tied knot to a biner and be tired enough not to notice what I had done. Fortunately, my knot is EEL (Either End Loading) and the concept shows as a potential security issue. EEL might be a useful shortened form judging by discussions here and elsewhere.

Now why might PETEE (Post Eye Tiable, Either End or PET-2 (less of a mouthful) ) be relevant here? Only if the biner jammed (I suppose that happens sometimes?) and then you went to untie your knot. In that, perhaps far-fetched, scenario it would be nice if the knot was PETEE for the same reasons we like PET in the first place.

As Dan points out, when do we actually need PETEE as a shortened form apart from this or another similarly convoluted case? For example, my bowline is PETEE, however I do not even know how to tie it as an end through a harness the 'wrong way'. Why would I need to know that?

Cheers,

mobius
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 09:09:24 AM by mobius »

Mobius

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2015, 02:09:14 PM »
...one might just question "PETEE" : a possibility, but why have it, why use it --i.e., why not tie it PET-1 and be done, the -2 unneeded.

  Imagine the eyeknot as a "relic" knot  :), tied in the middle of a loose / unloaded line at a certain time, and waiting / wanting to be loaded, by the either end, only later - in other words, the knot may be tied before it is decided how ( i.e., by which end ) it will be loaded. If we do not know in advance, for whatever reason, which end will be loaded, we can not decide relating-to-which-end it should better be tied as PET- so it would be great if it is PET regarding both ends.

If you using a mid-line TIB eye knot when would you ever envisage needing to untie it by removing a 'tail'? EEL is a good thing to have (as discussed), however would PETEE/PET-2 (or even just PET2 perhaps, if we are going to use this short form idea) be that important in this case? I'm not so sure, though I could probably dream up some scenario it might be, even if is fairly unlikely to happen ;)

Cheers,

mobius

roo

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2015, 07:40:06 PM »
If you using a mid-line TIB eye knot when would you ever envisage needing to untie it by removing a 'tail'? EEL is a good thing to have (as discussed), however would PETEE/PET-2 (or even just PET2 perhaps, if we are going to use this short form idea) be that important in this case? I'm not so sure, though I could probably dream up some scenario it might be, even if is fairly unlikely to happen ;)

Cheers,

mobius
I think it's good to talk about specific, real-world applications when discussing knot needs.  That way, it prevents others from going off on tangents the original asker (you) did not intend.
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Mobius

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2015, 10:50:17 PM »
If you using a mid-line TIB eye knot when would you ever envisage needing to untie it by removing a 'tail'? EEL is a good thing to have (as discussed), however would PETEE/PET-2 (or even just PET2 perhaps, if we are going to use this short form idea) be that important in this case? I'm not so sure, though I could probably dream up some scenario it might be, even if is fairly unlikely to happen ;)

Cheers,

mobius
I think it's good to talk about specific, real-world applications when discussing knot needs.  That way, it prevents others from going off on tangents the original asker (you) did not intend.

Ok, what about this: The middle climber of 3 is tied-in clipped into a Butterfly Loop. A Butterfly Loop is not PET, you always end up with a simple overhand knot in your hand if you do untie it by an end. However, you are unlikely to ever want to untie it this way, in this application, so why would PET matter? If PET doesn't matter, then PET2 certainly won't.

Cheers,

mobius

[Edit: tied-in was the wrong term for attachment using a biner]
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 09:22:58 AM by mobius »

roo

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Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2015, 11:13:18 PM »
Ok, what about this: The middle climber of 3 is tied-in with a Butterfly Loop. A Butterfly loop is not PET, you always end up with a simple overhand knot in your hand if you do untie it by an end. However, you are unlikely to ever want to untie it this way, in this application, so why would PET matter? If PET doesn't matter, then PET2 certainly won't.

Cheers,

mobius
Correct.  A Butterfly Loop will work, is fast to tie, is easy to check, and tolerates the various loading permutations in the scenario well.
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