Author Topic: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?  (Read 13670 times)

xarax

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2015, 03:13:51 AM »
...the crossed-legs version is stronger than the other...
( I disagree with X's assertion of curvature in the OP's case --it seems a 1dia turn either way.)

   Noope - In the "common" dressing, without crossed-legs and with the two Standing Parts ( as seen from the one of the two "flat" sides ) parallel to each other, we have an X-shaped crossing : at this area, the one segment of the Standing Part engulfs the other. The diameter of each first curve is determined by the paths of both legs of the U-shaped turn, the leg before and the leg after the tip of the "U" : so, it is determined by the direct continuation of the Standing End, before the tip of the first curve - where, indeed, there is no difference between the two curves -, AND by the continuation of the Standing End after the tip of the U-turn, where we see the difference I am talking about. In order to be able to go "around" the segment of the line which passes "under" at the X-crossing, the segment of the line which passes "over" has to follow a wider path, that is, to trace a more gentle curve. The segment of the Standing Part which passes "under" makes an 1 rope diameter turn, while the segment of the Standing Part which passes "over" makes an 1 + 1 = 2 rope diameters turn - because the later has also to encircle the former.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:53:19 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alpineer

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2015, 05:00:18 AM »
   
   Of course, if I had been so naively cunning to dare to present any single eye loop with a second unused, redundant pseudo-eye gawking around, I would had been "keystroking", and "filling lines" !  :)
 

Your quip merits at least two of these  :) xarax.  :)

alpineer

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2015, 04:17:29 PM »
Well xarax, you've naively misunderstood my comment completely! "These" refer to ":)" It was just my way of applauding your sense of humour (or was it pure sarcasm?) in this particular case.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 04:36:09 PM by alpineer »

xarax

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2015, 04:57:02 PM »
Well xarax, you've naively misunderstood my comment completely! "These" refer to ":)" It was just my way of applauding your sense of humour in this particular case.

  You have used a naive syntax !  :)  A pronoun of a smiley !  :)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 04:57:40 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alpineer

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2015, 09:01:16 PM »
Hi knot rigger,

I think your method is well thought out. After a bit of playing around it became apparent that you have addressed what is perhaps the most important consideration regarding a vertically oriented line - that it can be under considerable tension - by virtue of it's own weight - where the knot is to be located. The method is only fully appreciated when much of the rope's weight hangs below, where the common "Handwrap" method is a fail. Your method has good flow and feels good in the hand - i.e. ergonomics - once one is familiar with it, which doesn't take long. 

Your method provides an effective means for isolating the weight of the rope without having to relieve the tension by means external to the tying process.
N.B. Any risk(examples?) of body parts getting caught or injured requires management prior to tying.

Your method elegantly avoids unwanted friction during the tying process. Other methods require mitigation. 



P.S. It would have been better had the tying process been shown even more slowly in the middle portion of your video, allowing the viewer more time to see the process clearly and also make it easier to stop and study.

P.P.S. Got a name for your method?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 12:08:06 AM by alpineer »

alanleeknots

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2015, 02:25:15 AM »
Hi All, Andy I use your idea and have create another method to tie the Butterfly loop, see if you like it or not.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prUHG_peCy8

          謝謝  alan lee.

knot rigger

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2015, 02:30:50 AM »
Alpineer:

Quote
1) Your method has good flow and feels good in the hand - i.e. ergonomics - once one is familiar with it, which doesn't take long.
& ...Your method elegantly avoids unwanted friction in the tying process.
2) P.S. It would have been better had the tying process been shown even more slowly in the middle portion of your video, allowing the viewer more time to see the process clearly and also make it easier to stop and study.
3) P.P.S. Got a name for your method?

1) Thanks, I agree :)

2) You're right!  I intend to work up a traditional "knot book" storyboard type tying instructions.  And I can certainly re-work, or re-do the video.  Thanks for the suggestion.

3) no, not yet. 

"It is hardy necessary to name a knot, but it assists materially in finding it a second time it the occasion arises" ABOK pg 174, as quoted for ABOK #952

"andy's method" seems a little vain.  Inspired by Brion Toss' method of naming (moku hitching, strait bend, St. mary's hitching)  I had thought of perhaps naming it where I discovered it perhaps.  It came to me underwater, at my job working as a rigger with the "O" show in las vegas.  "scuba butterfly"?  "O butterfly"? "underwater butterfly"?  all of these names are amusing, but not very descriptive !  I was playing around with practicing this Hybrid method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeKLU_6NLv4

when I came upon (came up with?) my new method.  Underwater the rope floats around, and a loose version of the "hybrid hand wrap method" floated into something like the final method I've come up with.

"modified hybrid"? "underwater hybrid butterfly"? are awkward as well as un-descriptive.  As a nod to my profession, as well as imitation intended as flattery of B. Toss again (rigger's hitch ABOK #1735), I thought "rigger's butterfly" has a nice ring to it.

  As you point out, the most useful thing about this method is mitigation of the tension due to rope weight, an application most useful to riggers, rock climbers, arborists, and rope access technicians. "rope weight tension mitigation method" is also amusing, but quite a mouth full! "rope access butterfly"? "SRT butterfly"?  I live in vegas, so "Red Rock's butterfly"? also sounds good to me, and is riffing off the "yosemite bowline". 

It's not really a new knot, so does it even deserve a new name?  The other (informal?) names of ABK methods (coil, or handwinding method, and twist and fold method) are really describing the motion involved in tying the knot.  I'm not sure what the key motion is in my method.  The trick to discovering it, and to tying it, is to start with the left hand thumb down, or "backhanded"  So "backhanded butterfly" or "backhanded method of tying the ABK" could be contenders.  "backhanded" has a somewhat nefarious connotation, which has a somewhat perverse appeal to me.  But tying a negatively connotated adjective to such a noble and trustworthy knot seems unsavory to me.

In the end, names of knots, and methods of tying them are really up to the people that use them.  Even if I have invented a new way of tying my old favorite, whatever I call it has little relevance to what the name may eventually be.  (you know the story of "Blake's" hitch I imagine)

So, Alpineer, I would like your help deciding on a name.  You (so far) have been the only IGKT forum member to see the merit in this method, or at least the only one to says so. (sorry, alanlee liked it as well, and I am very fond of his method).  So, do you have any suggestions on what to name this new(?) method of tying the ABK?  Of course, anyone else in the group, that has positive input in what to call it is welcome to chime in as well.

cheers
andy
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 02:56:03 AM by knot rigger »

knot rigger

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2015, 02:37:43 AM »
Quote
Hi All, Andy I use your idea and have create another method to tie the Butterfly loop, see if you like it or not.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prUHG_peCy8

          謝謝  alan lee.

Alan,

You have again filled me with joy at watching your video :)  I really like both your methods.  In the new method I like how you catch the standing end with your left finger especially.

我很榮幸

(sorry if google translate slaughters that translation)

knot rigger

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2015, 03:54:00 AM »
Quote
P.S. It would have been better had the tying process been shown even more slowly in the middle portion of your video, allowing the viewer more time to see the process clearly and also make it easier to stop and study.

Alpineer (and others) let me know what you think of this revised video

https://youtu.be/0wupL8dPTzw

I put a one second freeze frame in at a few key moments. If you thinks it's better, I'll update my original post and put it at the top of the tread.  If you think it still need improvement, let me know and I'll keep working on it.

thanks
andy

alpineer

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2015, 05:13:56 AM »
Yeah, that's better Andy.
I also like "bracketing" fore and aft with real time demos to illustrate the ease and speed of tying.

Regarding the naming of this method: Take your time. Of course, I'm happy to contribute.

Thread drift alert! I have two friends who are currently down in Red Rocks on a 12 day climbfest . They won't want to come home.

Cheers,
alpineer
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 05:21:20 AM by alpineer »

alpineer

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2015, 05:39:07 AM »
  I was playing around with practicing this Hybrid method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeKLU_6NLv4

when I came upon (came up with?) my new method. 

Shades of Synchronicity, Batman! I'm the author of that method. I confess to wondering, after watching your video, if you'd seen mine!

knot rigger

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2015, 06:02:00 AM »
Quote
I'm the author of that method.

FANTASTIC!

You deserve some credit for this new method, then.  If not for your video (and the pool at O) I never would have come up with the new method.

alpineer

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2015, 06:08:04 AM »

when I came upon (came up with?) my new method.  Underwater the rope floats around, and a loose version of the "hybrid hand wrap method" floated into something like the final method I've come up with.
 

There's heavy irony here; that your discovery took place in a water bound environment where gravity has minimal effect on Planet Earthians but works so well where it, i.e.gravity, has a major effect. :)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 06:10:06 AM by alpineer »

knot rigger

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2015, 06:17:11 AM »
Xarax:

I come to the decision that I must decline our proposed bet.  I fear that the precision of method I have to break test the ABK would not meet your 3% or less difference in breaking efficiency condition to the wager.  Or to put it another way: you're too damn picky  ;)

On that topic, I feel that a 3% difference in breaking efficiency of two sides of a knot, or two knots is so slight as to be disregarded in most applications.  Even 5% is essentially the same to me!

As I rule of thumb, when I'm figuring out safe working loads for rigging involving knots, I figure that all knots reduce the breaking strength of the rope by 50%, adding an additional margin of safety.  As you know, the number of variables that affect knot efficiency are so numerous, that an accurate.. down to 3%.. real life known breaking strength of any rigging system is largely unknowable.  Or at least so complicated to compute that it would become counterproductive.

I am interested in your knot booklet, and would be happy to purchase a copy when you have it ready.

And, I intend to do the break testing we spoke of, and I'll post the results here for all to see.  Please be patient, it may take me a week or so to complete the testing.

cheers
andy

knot rigger

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Re: a new way to tie the alpine butterfly knot?
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2015, 06:27:45 AM »
Quote
I have two friends who are currently down in Red Rocks on a 12 day climbfest .

Alpineer, I sent you a private message about your friends  :)