Author Topic: Judgment of Knot Tyer - which one of the three TIB tight hitches ?  (Read 6426 times)

xarax

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   So, we now have three beautiful Knot deities, the sexy Aphrodite ( the Bull Pretzel hitch ), the wise Athena ( the Bull Clove hitch ) and the beautiful cow-eyed Hera ( the ABoK#60 / ABoK#1126 / ABoK#1695 hitch ) (1).
   They all consume about the same amount of material, they can be tied in-the-end in a similar and equally easy and quick way, and they all do the same job(s) : they can be securely and tightly tied around one or more objects
a.)  as hitches, able to withstand some not-heavy lengthwise pull without sliding easily and immediately along its/their surface, or being badly deformed - or,
b.)  as binding knots, able to keep those objects bundled together.
   
   Which is "better" ? And by "better", I mean those related, but different things :

1. Which may be pre-tightened harder, so that its wraps become more stretched/strained - and the friction forces generated between them and the surface of the object(s) become stronger.
2. Which may retain its tight grip around the object(s) after its end(s), one or both of them, is/are pulled in a lengthwise direction.
3. Which will slide less along the surface of the object(s) during such a lengthwise pull.
4. Which will "swallow" less rope-length out of its ends, and in a later time, when the objects it binds together are shaken, so they start to move independently the one from the other, and the bundle starts to "explode" outwards.
5. Which will not run the danger to "unlock" its ends, while/after it has been submitted to vibrations ( during transportation of the bound object(s), for example )     
6. Which can be tied in-the-bight more easily, or in the most intuitively simple and easily memorisable way.
7. Which can be untied easily, even if/after its locking mechanism is "closed" tightly around itself, when its limbs are pulled by a strong outside intervention, which tends to shrink the wraps, or by a strong internal intervention, which tends to widen them.

   I have only one apple, one brain. and one place in my list of preferred knots, so I really need to know !  :) :) 

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_of_Paris
     
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 10:31:53 PM by xarax »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Judgment of Knot Tyer - which one of the three TIB tight hitches ?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2015, 05:24:06 PM »
   So, we now have three beautiful Knot deities,
 the sexy Aphrodite ( the Bull Pretzel hitch ),
 the wise Athena ( the Bull Clove hitch ),
 and the beautiful cow-eyed Hera ( the ABoK#60 / ABoK#1126 / ABoK#1696 hitch ) (1).
Whoa : (a) where's the usual X.-marks-the-spot (w/ULR) assist?
& (b) you mean #1695, not -6 (which latter is what I told of finding
in a maritime museum, and realized could be TIB --though what was
in the museum showed lack of this insight, with an end-2-end joint
nearby).

(Paris wants these beauties brought before him,
not mere word of their existence and having to
get off of his reclining duff to find!   ;D  )

And I object re "hitches" at least for ones I recognize (w/o URL help),
but will regard as "noose-hitches" --signaling a topological difference
serving an equivalent function.


--dl*
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xarax

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Re: Judgment of Knot Tyer - which one of the three TIB tight hitches ?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2015, 06:37:38 PM »
   Yes, ABoK#1695. It rhymes with the "double" ( double Ring, double Strap ), but not with the 6 ( 1126 ) :).

   And I object re "hitches" at least for ones I recognize (w/o URL help), but will regard as "noose-hitches" --signalling a topological difference serving an equivalent function.

   OK, I, too, may start calling them "nooses-hitches" some day... For the time being, I use to call them "tight hitches", to denote their Janus-like properties, because :
1., they can serve as self-locking on both ends hitches, able to remain tightly attached on the hitched object, even if/when the Standing end is not pulled any more, AND they can withstand a certain amount of lengthwise pull - and/or
2., they can serve as self-locking binding knots, of which we do not need to secure the ends any further.   

   I have noticed that, in many vases and paintings on that myth, prince Paris is depicted seated  :) (see the attached second picture, and (2)), so Your Highness should not lose His hopes to understand  :)

   URL s :
   
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5250.msg34410#msg34410

   it's more surely tightened than #1696.

   Hmmm... I am not so sure about that.
   Mind you that all those tight hitches should better be pre-tightened by pulling their two ends in an alternating way, the one after the other - so we can deliver all the force of our bare hands on each one of them, and exploit the mechanical advantage offered by the Cow - ZigZag mechanism more efficiently.
   THAT judgement is now my current problem : which one of the three TIB Jam knots / "tight" hitches / binding knots, the "new" Bull Clove hitch (0), the "recent" Bull Pretrzel hitch, or the "old" ABoK#60 hitch / ABoK#1126 ( double Ring knot, Tag knot, double Running knot ) / ABoK#1695 ( double Strap hitch )(1)(2)(3), is preferable ? ( I think I will better start a new thread on this issue...)
   
0.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748
1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.msg31275#msg31275
2.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.msg31771#msg31771
3.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.msg33153#msg33153

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5238.0
2. https://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/online_tours/greece/the_myth_of_the_trojan_war/the_judgement_of_paris.aspx
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 02:51:53 AM by xarax »
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Knutern

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Re: Judgment of Knot Tyer - which one of the three TIB tight hitches ?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2015, 12:12:22 AM »
In adition to Xarax questions I wonder wich of those hitches will be more secure when pulling very hard to one end while the other end is hanging free?

After playing around with some soft ropes I have the following opinion about the differences between Bull Pretzel hitch and the Bull Clove Hitch.

My experiences so far with the Bull Pretzel hitch (compared to Bull Clove Hitch)
  • Is easier to untie after heavily loaded
  • Is easier to tie by TIB method (see link to howto-video)
  • Get a tighter grip about a wide diameter sylindrical object. The Bull Clove Hitch restrict the pulling force by it's Clove Hitch part
So far in my opinion I beleive that the Bull Pretzel Hitch in most cases is the better choice over Bull Clove Hitch  :)

I just uploaded two videos showing the TIB tying of those two hitches. For the Bull Clove Hitch, there is an alternative tying method begins with the Clove hitch.

Bull clove Hitch, TIB method (not starting with Clove Hitch)
http://youtu.be/JXk0TQO832Y

Bull Pretzel Hitch, TIB method
http://youtu.be/XKynLEr35OU

Xarax, I read your PM. I cannot find any common shape that can be use to tie both the hitches mentioned above.
I'm aiming for knots that is secure, AND that is easy to untie.

xarax

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Re: Judgment of Knot Tyer - which one of the three TIB tight hitches ?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2015, 02:35:48 AM »
...which of those hitches will be more secure when pulling very hard the one end, while the other end is hanging free ?

   BEFORE you have pre-tightened them, or after ? I mean, when you have pre-tightened them by pulling both ends ( and, as I had mentioned elsewhere, by pulling them the one after the other, at the end of the procedure, to get a most tight grip ), you can load them by the one or by the other end : they will not slip. As almost all two-wrap hitches, they are very secure knots - and these "tight" hitches ( or nooses-hitches, or nooses-hitches-binders, or whatever...), in particular, can also withstand some considerable amount of lengthwise pull.
   I had never tried to pre-tighten them by pulling only the one end, from the start to the finish ( I can not see if/when this may be needed... ), so I have no idea what happens in this case...   
 
   
   Is easier to untie after heavily loaded.

   Is this a good thing, or a bad thing ?  :)
   If we want to use them as hitches, they should be easy to untie, but if we use them as binders, they should not ! :)
   So, any answer to questions #4 and #5, may be incompatible with any answer to question #7 !
   
   I cannot find any common shape that can be use to tie both the hitches mentioned above.

   I thought that we could possibly tie in-the-bight all the THREE of them !  :)
   However, even if you find a common starting base for TWO of them, it would be great - because then we will be able to compare the two tying methods directly, and see which is easier/quicker.
   I had only this remote hope, which seemed reasonable, because I see that those knots are "similar"
1. in their topology ( as TIB, they are all equivalent to the unknot )
2. in their general shape ( as two-wrap hitches, or double = two-eye nooses-hitches ), AND
3. in their "simplicity" : I do not think that any one of them is simpler or more complex that any of the other two...
   This is why I thought that, as they already share many things in common, they could also be tied starting from a common base. 
   Keep searching !  :) :) :)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 02:39:06 AM by xarax »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Judgment of Knot Tyer - which one of the three TIB tight hitches ?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2015, 08:31:38 AM »
Without now repeating some play and in-hand checking,
I think that while the "pretzel" looks so neat and might
be better at resisting the undoing that can come from
pulling back the outermost wrap of the knot hitching
to the twin SParts,
it is problematic to tighten, and doesn't so well tighten
in loading.  For this, I think that the clove h. will be
best.

--dl*
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xarax

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Re: Judgment of Knot Tyer - which one of the three TIB tight hitches ?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2015, 10:32:50 AM »
   Thank you, Your Highness !  :)
   As I had said in a PM to Knutern, in order to achieve a very tight nub, you have to pre-tighten the nub by pulling its two ends before you apply the whole "tight" noose-hitch-binder on the object(s). Then, having an already quite tight "neck" of your noose, you wrap the object(s), and you pull the slack out of the wraps ( during this pulling, the lines can still slip through the "neck", because it is the contact and the further squeeze of the nub on the surface of the object(s) which "locks" / immobilizes them completely ). At the final stage, you pull the ends even more, the one after the other. ( Some royal breakfast will help on this... :))
     
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xarax

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Re: Judgment of Knot Tyer - which one of the three TIB tight hitches ?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2015, 01:30:59 PM »
   I had recently tried again, now by pre-tensioning it with much heavier loads, the first Doubly slipped overhand knot-based hitch ( Tom Foul s hitch ) I had tied, presented back at 2011 (1). Although when it is not pre-tensioned very hard its nub seems to "float" somewhat aimlessly over the surface of the pole, and not "close" around itself and "lock" the penetrating lines as efficiently as in the other three hitches shown in this thread, under heavier loading the situation improves spectacularly. The overhand knot "closes", becomes rock-solid, and then this rock starts pounding/squeezing the crossing points of the two wraps under it, forming a most secure "lock".
   Also, one more reason we should consider this hitch, is that it can be formed in-the-hand and in-the-bight and then be inserted on the pole through an accessible end of it as easily and quickly as the Double Ring hitch - that is, more easily and quickly than the two other contenders.   
   I would be glad if a member of the Forum tries those four tight hitches, and report here his/hers findings.


1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3197.msg19074#msg19074
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InTension

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Re: Judgment of Knot Tyer - which one of the three TIB tight hitches ?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2015, 03:13:42 PM »
   I thought that we could possibly tie in-the-bight all the THREE of them !  :)
   However, even if you find a common starting base for TWO of them, it would be great - because then we will be able to compare the two tying methods directly, and see which is easier/quicker.

Why limit the tying technique to in-the-bight? - To impose some form of consistency? Or does the task at hand demand it?
If those are not essential, then it might be best to seek for the easiest 'anything goes' technique for tying each different knot, and then attempt to determine which of these is easiest over all.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 03:24:41 PM by InTension »

xarax

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Re: Judgment of Knot Tyer - which one of the three TIB tight hitches ?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2015, 03:41:09 PM »
  Tie them in whichever way you wish - the judgement is about their tightness ( = how early and how much they will slide when they will be tested in a lengthwise pull ), not how easily and quickly they can be tied in-the-bight and/or in-the-end. However, if it turns out that there is no much/noticeable difference between two of them, then the way/easiness/speed they can be tied may be the only important factor left, to determine which one we will choose.
This is not a knot.