Author Topic: Useful PET TIB knots  (Read 5392 times)

agent_smith

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Re: Useful PET TIB knots
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2021, 03:55:39 AM »
Hello jarnos,
Again - and in good faith...

This is drifting w-i-d-e from Alan Lees original topic.

And we are entering a discussion which challenges your notional understanding of knot terminology and knot structure.
Because my definitions may not accord with your understanding, it therefore may cause some anxiety or discontent (which is a perfectly normal response).

However, at risk of derailing Alan's thread topic, I will make the following points:
1. #1074 and #1882 are the same knot.
2. In #1882, the eye has been collapsed/shrunk (I believe Xarax was likely the first to experiment with shrinking/collapsing an eye several years ago - eg he collapsed/shrunk the eye of #1080).
3. Note that the term 'PET' refers to an 'eye'. Otherwise, you would need to re-state the term as 'PLT' (post loop tiable). If you use therm 'PET' - it infers that you agree to (and understand) what the letter 'E' represents (an 'eye'). There is a distinct difference between a loop and an eye. A loop can have chirality (eg S or Z chirality). However, an 'eye' has no chirality.
If you are uncomfortable with the letter 'E' - this means you need to change it to 'L' - and this implies you prefer the term 'PLT'?
4. The use of the term eye (instead of loop) has caused anxiety in some IGKT members - and indeed, in some individuals, outrage. Why is this so? Why do some knot tyers become outraged when new terms or new concepts are introduced? The likely answer comes down to 'change'. Some people cannot cope with change - and the very notional concept of change induces fear and anxiety, which leads to outrage/anger. It could also be that Clifford Ashley is revered and considered to be infallible. To disagree with Ashley is equivalent to abandoning or ignoring centuries of tradition - and any person who dares to do so is inviting ridicule/hatred.
5. Ashley did not have a notional concept of chirality - that is, he did not present detailed information about the fact that a 'loop' can have either 'S' or 'Z' chirality - and all of his 'Bowlines' are illustrated with 'Z' chirality (not one is presented with 'S' chirality). All knots have a mirror inverse version - which is equally valid (ie tie your favorite knot - and then hold it adjacent to  plane mirror - and you will see a mirror inverse version).

With specific regard to #1074 Bowline with a bight:
1. It is a single eye knot (not a double eye knot)
2. The 'eye' is formed (and sized) - and then the knot core is tied.
3. The 'bight' is actually a tail.
4. The 'bight' cannot be fed through a ring (only the 'eye' can be fed through a ring).

With specific regard to the definition of a PET knot:
1. The 'eye' can be formed and sized first - without any pre-existing knot - and then the knot core is tied (hence the term 'post')
2. The 'eye' can be also formed around many different types of objects (eg a tree, a boulder, a post, a stump, a concrete pillar, etc) - but it is not necessary to add a tree or a boulder or such an object to qualify the definition... But, (see next point).
3. By default, all 'PET' knots enable the 'eye' to be fed through a ring.
4. Not all 'TIB' (Tiable In the Bight) knots are also 'PET'. For example, #1047 F8 is 'TIB' but it isn't 'PET'.
5. A knot that is both 'PET' and 'TIB' is desirable... and another desirable quality is 'EEL' (either end loadable).
6. With regard to #1074 Bowline with a bight, the 'bight' component can't be fed through a ring, because it isn't an 'eye'.

...

Lees link Bowline:
I respectfully disagree with your comment that Lees link Bowline is hard to untie.
In Alan Lees video, the knot was loaded right up to its MBS yield point.
In other words, the knot was maximally loaded.
Alan was able to untie his knot - even after maximal loading (its not as if he took 4 hours and used a hammer to loosen it).
I personally find this knot easy to tie.
As with learning any new knot, you need to invest time to reach mastery.
I recall learning to drive a manual car - I found it hard to take my foot off the accelerator, push the clutch in, stay on my side of the road and not stall the engine or crunch the gears. I certainly couldn't hold a conversation while I was learning to do this.
Now - after many years of driving cars, I can change gears without difficulty and hold a conversation at the same time...

EDIT: Image added
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 04:00:42 AM by agent_smith »

jarnos

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Re: Useful PET TIB knots
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2021, 04:42:16 PM »
Hello agent_smith,

I suggest that we continue discussion about PET at https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6935.0.
I don't know where you get that a loop can have chirality, but I guess you could try to explain that in another topic, if relevant. I read about many terms at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_knot_terminology.

Perhaps discussing about EEL qualities of the knots fits in this topic.
Jarno Suni

jarnos

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Re: Useful PET TIB knots
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2021, 04:58:48 PM »
As for the original post, interesting thing about the blue knot ("Scott's locked bowline by Xarax") and the red knot (Ampersand bowline) is that they are interchangeable even when connected to an object, but the working part and standing part switch roles. See Alan's video:
Jarno Suni

jarnos

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Re: Useful PET TIB knots
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2021, 01:47:40 PM »
With specific regard to #1074 Bowline with a bight:
1. It is a single eye knot (not a double eye knot)
2. The 'eye' is formed (and sized) - and then the knot core is tied.
3. The 'bight' is actually a tail.
4. The 'bight' cannot be fed through a ring (only the 'eye' can be fed through a ring).

It seems I did the impossible, then :P
Jarno Suni