Author Topic: PJ's Pole Knot  (Read 4468 times)

pjcharp

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PJ's Pole Knot
« on: May 01, 2015, 04:15:36 AM »
Hello Everyone

I came to the forum because I am very interested in knots of all kinds and to introduce a potential new knot in the constrictor family. It shares many of the attributes of the constrictor but so far seems to be jam proof.

I'm currently calling it PJ's Pole Knot since I use it to tie things to poles and masts  securely. It has good resistance to lengthwise pull (along pole in either direction). Is easy to tie and does not jam. Once loaded the knot can be easily untied by pulling the tail sideways. I believe PJPK should quite strong since the load path does several loops around the pole before restriction.

Instructions (photos attached)

1) Take a wrap around the pole and then 2 wraps over riding the first.

2) Form a small loop in the standing part and pass the loop through the between the X that forms in the rope on the pole (as in the constrictor knot).

3) Pass the tail through the loop formed. Dress and then tighten by loading the running part.


I first developed PJPK when trying to make a Washtub Bass to attach a piece of rope to a broom handle.

xarax

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2015, 05:28:30 AM »
   The disadvantage I think I see in this knot, in comparison to the (Double) Constrictors, is that you can tighten it by pulling the one, only, end - and this may be difficult, or even impossible, when the surface of the pole is not slippery enough, to allow the tension induced by the Standing end to reach the Tail end, after traveling along all those wraps. The Single and the Double Constrictors (2), the Boa knot as well as the Constrictor nock presented in this Forum some time ago (1), can all be tensioned by pulling both ends simultaneously, so the tension coming from each side has to run half, only, of the total length of the wraps.
   If the wraps are tight, the Tail end can be secured more easily ( and without consuming this considerable amount of material ) in the common way, by simply driving it under the riding turns. If they are not tight, the hitch can not withstand a lengthwise pull in the first place. Therefore I think that the attention and the material spent to secure the Tail end that way, is either excessive or redundant.
   Tied around an object with a slippery surface, it can be pre-tightened sufficiently tightly, indeed - but, to really withstand a strong lengthwise pull when tied around such a surface, it will require at least one, and probably two or even three more turns, and then we return to the problem described above. However, since I have tied this knot just a few times around two, and two only, poles, what I say about it may be due to the lack of sufficient experience in tying and tightening it. 
   
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4256.0
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.msg19035#msg19035
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 01:54:24 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

roo

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2015, 03:06:38 PM »
Hello Everyone

I came to the forum because I am very interested in knots of all kinds and to introduce a potential new knot in the constrictor family. It shares many of the attributes of the constrictor but so far seems to be jam proof.

I'm currently calling it PJ's Pole Knot since I use it to tie things to poles and masts  securely. It has good resistance to lengthwise pull (along pole in either direction). Is easy to tie and does not jam.

Hi PJ,

I can understand the need for a binding that can be released easily. If you simply make tight wraps around your target object, it'll have a cumulative clamping effect.  Then you can finish by tying the free ends off with a reef knot or slipped reef knot.

It takes some dexterity and practice, but it may be down your alley if you're willing to trade a little rope consumption for added clamping force and want a sure release.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2015, 04:32:20 PM »
Were I to try to discern the hitch from the rightmost image
(i.e., of the completed knot), I'd say that the middle image
goes wrong in its arrow's attachment --that the arrowed
end making the finishing tuck should be the other one,
so that the loaded S.Part runs under the turns and then
turns around & nips the tail.  To my eye, I see what appears
to be a segment of cordage immediately below the S.Part
in the right image.  (In any case, this too is a knot to consider.)
  Now, having tied the intended one, I see that the tucked
bight can arrange itself to give the view above.

NB : the constrictor & strangle knots are binders --no ends
are loaded.


--dl*
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Tex

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2015, 06:06:14 PM »
Hi PJ,

I can understand the need for a binding that can be released easily. If you simply make tight wraps around your target object, it'll have a cumulative clamping effect.  Then you can finish by tying the free ends off with a reef knot or slipped reef knot.

It takes some dexterity and practice, but it may be down your alley if you're willing to trade a little rope consumption for added clamping force and want a sure release.


roo I like this thinking, and I was advocating it strongly for binding soft object (with not much enthusiasm received for it), but it seems more difficult to pull off with hard objects, where you better not let any slack out while tying it. 





pjcharp

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2015, 11:40:35 PM »

Thanks for the feedback

I've included a photo of step 2 with the rope rearranged to show the path a bit better.
I generally tighten the knot by grasping the knot and pole with my left hand and applying tension on the running end. Applying pressure while twisting the pole allows it to be pretty snug. The final step is to pull the tail to remove slack.

I generally use this knot in situations where the load can go to zero. I don't think tucked turns are secure for that use. I also realize that you don't get the tension you would in a true constrictor but I have found that constrictors don't deal well with a load perpendicular to the pole and this one tends to tighten with such loads.

roo

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2015, 12:30:16 AM »
I generally use this knot in situations where the load can go to zero.
Can you clarify what the application is?  Is this supposed to be a hitch or a binding?  I think the reference to the Constrictor is throwing people (myself included).

Thanks.
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pjcharp

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2015, 12:51:51 AM »
Hello Roo

PJPK is based on the constrictor and has some of it's qualities minus the tendency to jam. I think of constrictors as best untied with a sharp knife once loaded. This one releases easily since the final lock is at the low tension side of the knot. I use it to attach to poles where the load can be off in any direction including a component along the pole in either direction. It is also stable in situation where the load goes to zero.

I have found that the constrictors I've used loosen with a pull perpendicular to the pole especially when the load is only on one of ends.

There may also be potential for PJPK as a lashing knot since it holds internal tension when load goes to zero. Will have investigate that a bit more.


xarax

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2015, 01:33:19 AM »
  I think of constrictors as best untied with a sharp knife once loaded.

  Not true. You can slip the one end, and untie them by removing the unloaded bight out of the nub.
  There is no direct correspondence between how tight a hitch is, and how easily it can be untied .
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2015, 07:59:12 AM »
  I think of constrictors as best untied with a sharp knife once loaded.

  Not true. You can slip the one end, and untie them by removing the unloaded bight out of the nub.
  There is no direct correspondence between how tight a hitch is, and how easily it can be untied .
:o

Of course there is a correspondence between tightness
of a knot and ease of untying it!  The oft'-given advice
to simply "slip" an end for easy untying betrays great
ignorance of actual knot usage : a knot that is so tight
that it's hard to untie will often be so tight that one
cannot pull out a slipped tail!

Quote
I think of constrictors as best untied with a sharp knife once loaded.
...
I have found that the constrictors I've used loosen with a pull
perpendicular to the pole especially when the load is only on one of ends.
Somehow the notion of "when loaded" for a constrictor
spells "hitch" not "binder" to me.  I also find it odd for
one to suggest that a knife is needed --this counts as
a myth-- and then later says that it gets loose when
loaded (on one end) !?  The latter behavior is a hint
about how to untie the knot sans knife, btw.  But
it certainly can be difficult, if the knot's set hard.

--dl*
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xarax

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2015, 09:43:39 AM »
  Of course there is a correspondence between tightness of a knot and ease of untying it! 

  Of course NOT ! You hadnt nt thought about it much, had you ?  :)
  There are tight knots which can "explode" easily, and in an instant, when you pull out their slipped tail - because this mechanism can overcome the tightness of the surrounding nub : the (straight) penetrating lines can always be forced to slip through the knots, when you can grab and pull them out (*).
  Also, there are tight knots/nubs which can be released easily, because their nubs present extrusions, "handles", which you can push or pull or rotate, with your fingers ( if the size is large ) or your nails ( if it is small ), loosen them, and then untie them more easily. And there are not-so-tight knots/nubs, which are almost perfectly "globular", and you can not untie easily not because they are so tight, but because you can not separate any part of them, and pull/push/rotate it.
   ( When I do not understand a knot or something a knot tyer says, I ask him to present better pictures/diagrams or clarify his views - what I can never understand, is why this is not happening so often in this Forum ....)

(*) In the case of the slipped Constrictor, which I had mentioned in my previous reply, the penetrating line is not straight, but twisted around the line of the other end. However, I have not been able to tighten a slipped Constrictor so much, that I could nt pull out the slipped tail afterwrds... Perhaps I had not eaten my breakfast  :) - or perhaps this happens because one can not tighten the Constrictor by pulling its ends against the pole, using his hands and feet, if needed, like a rower : he has to pull the ends towards a direction tangent to the surface of the pole, not perpendicular to it, and that is a limitation in the amount of force he can apply, if the pole car revolve around its axis.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 10:18:35 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2015, 07:22:16 PM »
  Of course there is a correspondence between tightness of a knot and ease of untying it! 

  Of course NOT ! You hadnt nt thought about it much, had you ?  :)
"a lot"?  --enough.

Quote
  There are tight knots which can "explode" easily,
and in an instant, when you pull out their slipped tail - because this mechanism can overcome the tightness of the surrounding nub : the (straight) penetrating lines can always be forced to slip through the knots, when you can grab and pull them out (*).
...
   ( When I do not understand a knot or something a knot tyer says,
I ask him to present better pictures/diagrams or clarify his views.
You're on : show me these exploding easily knots!!

But note also that my claim against your bold assertion
isn't defeated by exceptional cases; there is some (general)
correspondence (which can be measured, per knot).

I think that you need to step away from the keyboard,
and go on some Real Knots tying sessions, In The Wild!

--dl*
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xarax

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Re: PJ's Pole Knot
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2015, 08:22:15 PM »
You're on : show me these exploding easily knots!!

   Read the threads about the "exploding" hitches in this Forum ( Search :" Exploding" )- and tell me which of those hitches can NOT be tightened as much as we can, yet remain exploding... So, they are not the "exceptional cases"(sic)...
   Let me explain it in yet another way : Imagine you had tied an "exploding" hitch, not around one object, but around two - so that it works also as a binder of them. You can always pull the two objects apart from each other, as much as you can, and tighten the hitch that way - so, in the end, you will have a very "tight hitch", not tightened by pulling its ends, but by pulling the two hitched objects apart. However, it will still remain an "exploding" hitch - and even if its untying would become a little bit more difficult, it will never become impossible, to the degree it will require knives, axes, dynamite, and all that stuff... 
   
   However, you have not answered to the TWO ( one, two ) different classes of tight, yet easily untied knots I had mentioned in my previous post ( in my second and third paragraphs ).
   Also, you had not replied to the particular example, which was the first I had mentioned in this thread, the slipped Constrictor. Do you find it difficult/impossible to untie ?

   
   I think that you need to step away from the keyboard, and go on some Real Knots tying sessions, In The Wild !

   I think that you need to step away from the keyboard, and go on some REAL knot tying - that is, tie some "new" knots, take pictures of them, and present them in this Forum, so we can enjoy them ( as I try to do...)
   If I count the ratio of words to knots of your wild stepping ( I will call it Dan Lehman s W/K ratio... :) ), I am afraid you have already reached infinity, and you are still going strong !  :) :) :)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 09:15:41 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.