Author Topic: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.  (Read 6314 times)

mercury

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Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« on: February 05, 2015, 04:56:17 PM »
Does anyone know this knot?

This knot is similar in some parts to a boatman's hitch or lightermans hitch. The main difference is that other hitches all start with the loose end being coiled around a bollard over the top of the fixed end. This has the problem that because the fixed end is attached to the boat at high (1.5m) level there is a likelihood that the rope can trap and cause a premature stop to the boat. The main advantage of the knot is that it is very easy to unfasten - even under load. The first bend around the fixed rope acts as a brake on the rope and slows the boat down. At that stage the knot can be made and the boat is secure. The opposite applies when unfastening and so the boat is always under tight control.

Any help in identifying or naming it would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 04:58:12 PM by mercury »

xarax

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Re: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2015, 06:44:35 PM »
   Too many wraps for a mooring = right-angle-pull hitch !
   If, on the Standing Part before the first round turn, you insert a 180 degrees turn = nipping loop, you can immobilize the Tail End in much simpler ways (*). ( See the Alaskan hitch, as shown by SquarebanksAlaska (1), or the Locked Cow hitch (B)). Without such a turn, you can also secure the free end of the Cow hitch-based configuration you use by other means : see, for example the slipped snug hitch or the Locked Cow hitch (A). ( Regarding the first two hitches, the price you have to pay for the gained simplicity is that, in order to obtain well-dressed, nicely formed knots, you should better reduce the slack by pulling the Tail End a little bit. )     

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739   

(*) P.S. To tie those two similar hitches in a similar way, read :
            http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg34050#msg34050
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 03:13:28 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

mercury

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Re: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2015, 07:55:21 PM »
xarax

Thanks for the reply and I will try them later this week. However the knot I use has served me well for a considerable time and the main benefit I find with it is that it can be untied under high load - say in a flow on a river and I still keep control as the loops are removed. Looking at your examples I am concerned as to whether a load from the boat would render the knot difficult to undo. What do you think?

In the knot I show it's literally a thumb and a finger with the left hand that undoes the knot and the right hand shuffles the rope clear.

Thanks

mercury

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Re: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2015, 08:41:04 PM »
As a new I'm still trying to display the knot to the best view. I have taken another shot using a transparent post for more clarity.

Hope this helps someone identify the knot.

Another similar one was Tugmans hitch

xarax

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Re: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2015, 09:25:50 PM »
  Looking at your examples I am concerned as to whether a load from the boat would render the knot difficult to undo. What do you think ?

  I do not know - the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Try them. Another important issue is if they can withstand alternate loading.

  Any multi-wrap hitch will do the job, because, due to the capstan effect, after some turns the amount of tensile forces running through the wraps and still unabsorbed by them is very small - so the knot can be secured and untied easily, even after / under high loading. So, the real problem is how to minimize the required rope length / number of wraps, and the time / difficulty of tying the knot, while addressing adequately all the other purposes you seek.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 09:44:52 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

mercury

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Re: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2015, 09:47:54 PM »
xarax

Once again thanks. I will try them.

Getting back to my original question where do I find out if the hitch I use has a name or history. It definitely has history from the old bargees, and similar knots were used when towing a butty (25t load and 35t gross) and the essential thing was to get the knot undone after high towing loads and wet conditions.

Any idea where I might find the name?

Sweeney

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Re: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2015, 10:15:21 PM »
This is not a named knot as far as I am aware - it is based on the many variations of the Lighterman's Hitch which were used for towing rather than mooring (hence its use in towing a butty) though I have seen this variant used for mooring. Like so many variants of a knot names were rarely used for each one especially in a closed community like that found on the canals. My own advice to canal boat owners is always tie off on the boat having looped the mooring line around a ring, bollard etc - not least it helps stop some idiot undoing the mooring line either accidentally or as an act of vandalism as well as enabling casting off from the boat rather than the towpath.

Barry

xarax

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Re: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2015, 10:22:08 PM »
  I have searched for names of three-wrap hitches when I had tied the somehow similar hitches shown at :
  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3104.msg18514#msg18514
  but I have not found anything... Almost all simple knots have "history" ( it is most improbable they had not been tied in the past by somebody, on purpose or by accident ), but few have been published or have names. It seems like a more complex, beefed ZigZag stake hitch to me ( ABoK#1195).
  For many variations of three-wrap snug hitches, read Knotting Matters 61, p.36 - p.39 :
  http://www.igktnab.org/km.html
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 10:39:26 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

mercury

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Re: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2015, 10:31:55 PM »
Sweeney

Perhaps my use of the word mooring is misleading. I only use when temporarily moored awaiting locks or through locks etc. The centreline is in use here and that would not be used for permanent or overnight moorings due to it's high fixing position rendering it unstable.

I agree with the idea of returning a (permanent) mooring rope back to the boat to remove the temptation of loosening by late night revellers, and would always do this but in  this case a simple turn and two half hitches do the job adequately.

Should I just call it a boatman's hitch and leave it at that?

Thanks 

mercury

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Re: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2015, 10:53:13 PM »
xarax

Thanks

I think you are very close with your mention of the zigzag hitch. Looking at a video of this it's similar but the standing part is underneath instead of above like I have it. This is very important to remove any chance of the rope getting trapped with the movement of the boat.

Anyway I think I will leave it as a boatman's hitch (for simplicity) and leave it at that. Or is there any way I could give it a new name without causing problems? It is different to all other 'cut' knots and so does need to be named differently.

Mick

xarax

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Re: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 11:26:51 PM »
is there any way I could give it a new name without causing problems?

  If you can find a name which, somehow, "describes" the knot, either its form or its preferable tying method, or a name which relates it with another, well-known similar knot, it would be better IMHO. "Generic" names, like "Boatman s hitch", Sailor s hitch", etc, are, to my view, too pompous. Boatmen and sailors use many hitches, why any particular one of them should claim it is "the" one ? However, I believe that the names are of almost no importance - what would be really useful would be a systematic trial and comparison of all possible similar three-wrap hitches, tied on vertical as well as on horizontal stakes / spars.       
This is not a knot.

mercury

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Re: Can anyone identify this knot. I use it on my narrowboat.
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2015, 08:13:44 AM »
xarax

Thanks, you've been most helpful. I'm away for the next few days and will certainly try your suggestions. In the meantime I will consider a name and think about some form of tests that might better evaluate the hitch I use

Thanks

Mick