Author Topic: A baker s dozen of "overcomplicated" knots :) . ( A personal re+collection )  (Read 10161 times)

xarax

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   It has been 5 ( = five ! ) years since I set my foot on KnotLand, and on this Forum - time flies.
   Now, 5 years ( 140 pages, 3200 posts, hundreds of pictures and dozens of "new" knots ) later, what is the net outcome ? In the greater scheme of things, but even in the smaller scale of the almost isolated tiny islands we inhibit during our short lives, and "for all practical purposes", zero:) :) :)
   However, I had a lot of fun, and I had not regretted any of the time I had spent tying practical knots which neither me nor anybody else will ever "use", taking pictures and writing posts which were clicked and read by a few, only, people - all of which will soon be forgotten, for good.
   If I were offered the possibility to speed up the evolutionary process a little bit, and extinguish right away anything that I had happened to do in KnotLand and in this Forum those 5 years, but were offered the choice of selecting just a dozen of knots as reminders of my personal journey, which ones would I select ? 
   I made a catalogue of 12+1 "new" knots ( 5 hitches and 5 loops ( most of them TIB ), 1 double loop, 1 binder and 1 bend ) - which catalogue I will be glad to modify, if/when a reader persuades me that any of the shown knots is either "overcomplicated" :), or that it is a "lemon" :).
   ( I should mention here that three of the most interesting, indeed great knots I was glad to meet while I was touring in KnotLand, turned out to be already known knots, tied by other knot tyers long ago, but I was not aware of them at that time : the Blackwall hitch ( within a bight ), the Tumbling Thief knot, and the Rat Tail Stopper. Three other great knots I would be glad to had ignored, and so be offered the possibility to explore ab initio, the bowline, the Fisherman s knot, and the Zeppelin bend, unfortunately were already known to me since my fishing days as a young boy - but there is another one, the Gleipnir, which would had never crossed my mind, even if I had lived for a thousand years ! )
   
      So, here is my (provisional) catalogue ( Edit : 2015-10-06 )
 
  1. TackleClamp hitch
  2. Double Locked Cow hitch.
  3. Single Locked Cow hitch EEL
  4. Bull Clove hitch
  5. Simplest hitch

  6. Ampersand Bowline
  7. Plait loop
  8. Helical 8 TIB loop
  9. Pretzel loop ( slipped )
10. Adjustable Helical loop

11. Double loop
12. Twin Crossing knots binder
13. Blackwall adjustable bend

    That s all, folks !  :) :) :)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 07:06:10 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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1-4
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 07:09:27 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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5-8
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 07:10:50 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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9-12
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 09:23:26 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Twine

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I think your #5 #3, "Single Locked Cow Hitch" is the most marvellous of your knots. It's not overcomplicated at all. Easy to make, easy to remember, easy to tie, easy to check. I use it now for hitching to anything, and it always sits there solid as a rock, and still is always easy to untie.

But why this summing up of your knot-tying life? It almost sounds like you're about to stop tying knots? What's the matter? I hope you are okay.

Twine
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 02:48:44 AM by Twine »
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci

xarax

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  Thank you, Twine.

  Life is a tangled sequence of events - most of which we can not control. It makes cycles - and, just like the tensile forces in a knot s turn, you either get out of those cycles, having lost only 50% of your initial impetus / momentum ( like it happens in bowline s nipping loop ), or you do not ; you finish your journey somewhere along the turn s rim ( like it happens in a half hitch :) ).
  I sensed that my knotting days have completed a round turn, and it is time for me to hang up myself from the rim of another merry-go-round !  :)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 09:11:42 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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   I compared the Constrictor loop ( the Buntline extinguisher, as I used to call it  :))( #10 in my list ) to the adjustable helical loop (1)( shown below ). ( In the Constrictor loop, the knot tied on the returning eye leg is a Constrictor- or a Transom-shaped knot, while in the adjustable helical loop it is a symmetric Pretzel-shaped knot ). It turns out that the adjustable helical loop, is a better, more clever knot, so I decided that it should be included in my list, in place of the Constrictor loop. ( Although those two knots do not belong to the same category : the Constrictor loop is a secure noose / hitch, the adjustable helical loop is an easily adjustable fixed eyeknot ). So, the Constrictor loop is dead - long live the adjustable helical loop:)   

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4965.msg33791#msg33791
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 03:31:49 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

preventec47

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I hope it would not be too much to ask that you show us a couple
of photos in sequence of the knots in the making so we can figure
out how to tie them ourselves....    Could you also mention what
you figure the strength to be as well as  how easy to untie when
pulled very very hard ?

Many months ago when I had some free time I spent a lot of time
here and found some innovative new bowlines that were highly regarded but the designers never showed us how to tie them
so the water bowline remains my go-to bowline  when
a loop is needed.

xarax

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   This thread serves no more than an index of the knots selected / mentioned. To see more details, search for the original presentations using the Forum s search engine, or Google. For example, searching for " Ampersand bowline, will lead you directly to :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4877.0
   Two posts of this thread show / describe a way to tie it in-the-bight.
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4877.msg31923#msg31923
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4877.msg31929#msg31929
   ( However, all knots can be tied in more than ways, and one can never be sure which is the simplest / easiest / quickest for the "average" person / knot tyer - if this "average" has any meaning. )
   I have never tested knots for strength. I just try to tie knots that do not have very sharp first curves - but strength is not my main concern. The only knots where strength may be a factor to prefer them from other TIB knots, are the TIB Helical loops.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 10:05:43 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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   Recently it had happened to me to tie a "new" TIB loop, which is not only PET, but PET from both ends, and it can also be loaded by either end ( EEL ). It is made from two crossing knots tied in each segment of the Standing Part, the one before the eye and the other after/post the eye. Therefore, as it is made of crossing knots, it is very easily untied, even after heavy loading, by the one, the other, or by both sides.
   Moebius raised the bar, and demanded a EEL loop - and I went just one small step further, and I demand a loop which is PET if tied-in-the-end, starting from either end ( Post End Tiable, Either End - PETEE). This was the task which is served by the Plait loop.
   ( Alpineer, enhaut and "roo', were misled by the topological equivalence of the Plait loop to the well known Farmer s loop, and believed that they are the same knot. (*)  Of course, they are not, because it is the geometry which determines the structural properties of a knot, not the topology ! We have many topologically identical knots, which are geometrically very different, so they are different knots ( See the "Bistable knots", at (1)). One of the most spectacular examples are the Scot s TIB bowline, and the Ampersand bowline, both TIB loops, which I find difficult to re-dress the one into the other, even after I had done this dozens of times. Of course, they are two quite different knots. If one wants to see a relation, I believe that the Plait loop is a variation of the ABoK#1055 ( the Span bend turned into a loop ), and vice versa. )(*)
   Therefore, EEL and PETEE condirions made me decide to replace, in my pantheon, the PET loop with an EEL, PETEE loop, the Plait loop. The PET loop is dead, long live the Plait loop:)
   
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4201

(*) They had even imagined, with their ( minds ) eyes wide shut, I suppose  :), that the Plait loop capsizes into the Farmer s loop, or vice versa ! Who can know KnotGod s Will ( regarding knot tyers ) ?  :)

(*) Alpineer indicated that it can also be considered as a variation of the ABok#1056, and it even can be tied the same in-the-bight tying way Ashley shows for the ABoK#1056. We do not yet know if any of those two loops can capsize into the other under heavy or special loading - it they can, they should be considered as variations of the same loop, indeed. If they can not, they should be considered as two forms of a "bistable knot". 
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 08:37:37 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Mobius

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   Mobious raised the bar, and demanded a EEL loop - and I went just one small step further, and I demand a loop which is PET if tied-in-the-end, starting from either end ( PEET). This was the task which is served by the Plait loop.
 

Nice loop, and...hey...

I'm nearly famous to get a mention here  ;D I have been playing with your new knot for a few minutes and it looks promising, though one needs to be careful dressing it so that that the collar structure shown around the SPart stays where it should. If that collar were to ride towards the eye then you end up with a tail that looks more like an open helix and the knot would collapse under load. As I said, that won't happen (I think) if the knot is dressed properly. Just about any knot can be dressed poorly (I inadvertently tightened the wrong things first and ended up with the situation I described above) so don't take my comment as a criticism  :)

xarax, I will try this loop out for you in a few days time when my test rig comes together and let you know how the knot performs under load with various end-2-loop configurations :)

P.S. fix the English variant spelling of the famous mathematical strip (The M?bius strip or M?bius band, also Mobius or Moebius) please  ;)

xarax

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   What can I do ? This EEL condition is irresistible - and the more some knot tyers ( for their own, knot tyer-ring reasons, NOT for knot-ting reasons...) are whining against TIB-ness, and I see how weak their "arguments" are, I realize even more that TIB-ness is a marvellous thing, a great thing - and that makes me reluctant to spoil this marvel, this greatness, with any disadvantage - so it makes me adopt the EEL condition wholeheartedly.
   This means that I have to kiss my beloved original Locked Cow hitch goodbye - and replace it with an also TIB, but now EEL "tight hitch". For the time being, I have not decided which of the two is better : the one presented at (1), or the other presented at (2) ?
   I have not made up my mind yet (3) - and I had not much help from the members of the knot-tying community on this, I have to say... :) 

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg30595#msg30595
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg30666#msg30666
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5250.msg34820#msg34820
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5250.msg34825#msg34825
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5250.msg34850#msg34850
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg34864#msg34864

P.S. 2025.05-21
    I have now made up my mind, and I have selected the EEL (single ) Locked Cow hitch for the vacant seat of my Pantheon. The Locked Cow hitch (B), although it is also EEL, does not seem to me as stable as I would had wished it to be when it is loaded by the "other" end. Read :
     http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5250.msg35572#msg35572
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 10:33:54 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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   When a bomb falls, it may have many victims... This EEL bomb, accompanied by the PET-2 aftershock, killed the original Locked Single Cow hitch, and now it kills the Strangle-based Helical loop ( which also is TIB, but not PET-2 : the Strangle is topologically equivalent to the Double Overhand knot, so, itself it is not TIB ).
   However, good KnotGod  :), who, evidently, does read my posts ( fortunately, He does not follows advices offered by mortals, and He has not put me in his "ignore" list, at least not yet  :) ), allowed me to meet another most secure and beautiful Helical loop, which is TIB and PET-2 (*)- and which now takes its place in my Pantheon, instead of the Strangle-based one....
   Moreover, now we can tie all the TIB Helical loops very easily, and also we can increase or decrease the number of helical turns which "encircle" the core of their nub very easily ( by following the conceptually straightforward way of "haltering" the helical coils ), the importance and versatility of this knot gets even greater .

  The Strangle-based Helical loop is dead, long live this "new" beauty, this Helical loop which is TIB and PET-2 (*) !  :) :)

   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4949.msg35092#msg35092

(*) P.S. As Dan Lehman immediately had seen, and pointed out, it is NOT PET-2 - it is based on a single overhand-knot "core", which, although it is topologically simpler than the double overhand knot of the Strangle, it is still not TIB, so the knot is still not PET-2. However, I believe it is much simpler than the Strangle-based one, without compromising its security. I have tied a similar TIB Helical loop 3 1/5 years ago, at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3020.msg21806#msg21806
but I like this "new" one more - its "core" seems more coherent and compact.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 11:58:46 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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   When a bomb falls, it may have many victims... This EEL bomb, accompanied by the PET-2 aftershock, killed the original Locked Single Cow hitch, and now it kills the Strangle-based Helical loop ( which also is TIB, but not PET-2 : the Strangle is topologically equivalent to the Double Overhand knot, so, itself it is not TIB ).
   However, good KnotGod  :), who, evidently, does read my posts ( fortunately, He does not follows advices offered by mortals, and He has not put me in his "ignore" list, at least not yet  :) ), allowed me to meet another most secure and beautiful Helical loop, which is TIB and PET-2 - and which now takes its place in my Pantheon, instead of the Strangle-based one....
   Moreover, now we can tie all the TIB Helical loops very easily, and also we can increase or decrease the number of helical turns which "encircle" the core of their nub very easily ( by following the conceptually straightforward way of "haltering" the helical coils ), the importance and versatility of this knot gets even greater .

  The Strangle-based Helical loop is dead, long live this "new" beauty, this Helical loop which is TIB and PET-2 !  :) :)

   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4949.msg35092#msg35092

I'm fine with dispensing with that dubious cow as I've
discussed elsewhere.  And, I'm hardly drunk with glee about
piling on acronymythic status to knots --YMMV with the value
of any given attribute (where the judge is Use and not some
hypothetical gameshow host giving t.v. prizes or something).

Here, simply, the alleged PET-2 attribute is falsely attributed:
the one side has an overhand base, reeved through the helix
(or the helix reeves through IT --which is the point of disproving
the claim of PET-2.  (And I note that I was first to view, the
2nd/lower image, 2 B Sure of tying (X's images are marvel of
functionality --click one end and it enlages (already large!) that end !).


--dl*
====

xarax

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I'm fine with dispensing with that dubious cow as I've discussed elsewhere.

  Your criticism was proven not well founded ( I had shown to you, with trials and pictures of them, that the "dubious cow" was MOOing very well, even when it wraps a Gargantuan spar  :)...) :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4975.msg32856#msg32856
...but it was not altogether wrong - indeed, "to be sure", as you said, the EEL Locked Cow hitch is better, although its tying is not so straightforward. 

« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 08:49:23 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.