Author Topic: The "Bourdon's Slide & Grip Loop"  (Read 9868 times)

Dan.Bourdon

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Let's recap briefly.
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2014, 08:17:09 AM »
̰ ̃   ҈ ֹˌ  ⁀·⁀ Hi xarax, ٩̢ ̗(Ӧ̮Ӧ)̢ ̗۶

 Thanks for your honesty. I appreciated all your comments about my knot, which tend to corroborate its originality.

 Do you know a slide and grip hitch that has a loop?

 I have searched all over Internet and found nothing. So, I created one for my need, i.e., to reproduce the power of clamps for a collage of wood. See "The motive of my knew knot" on top.

 In fact, I needed a high mechanical advantage that could hold for days. A pulley system made of twines and knots was the cheapest solution. But the loop had to be able to withstand a very high pulling tension and yet, be movable on the twines for the resets. So, I have learned the theory of the three types of pulley systems by watching a few videos, then started my project a few days later with my design of two compound and two complex systems, along with two series of different inline loops to secure the anchors apart on the stick.


Tests:

 My knot had to pass many criteria, including a series of very bad treatment, such as:
  • Repetitive quick pulls & releases in every directions.
  • Long heavy pulls from side to side while holding the loop in the middle, at the left side of the root of the loop and at its right side, and so, alternately in different order and speed.
  • The entire knot must keep its shape and gripping power when it has no load or after a reset. A prusik failed on a twine of about 0.025 inch tick made with the same twine. It just slide after a reset, or if tightened more, its loop blocked the string from passing through, contrarily to mine that maintained its tightness, gripping power and the original size of the loop.
  • As a 'Capture the Progress' usage, it should not enter the pulley. The size of the stoppers is perfect for that, especially when the pulley has two rolls.
 I did managed again this weekend a few ways to lock the loop without stopper, but they all failed the above handling.


Challenge:

 Any genius out there who can make a "Icicle Hitch Using the End" and from frame #9, lock both ends in that knot to form a loop without a bend in it, without stopper and pass the tests above?


1.  ... it is not elegant or clever, ... and the knots it generates are often bulky and ugly.

"clever": right; see the "Challenge" above. Regardless of the locking mechanism, a dynamic knot needs stoppers to pass the "Tests" above.

"elegant": I did not know that any new knot should pass the 'decorative' category.

 Of course my knot is ugly as I mentioned in the Reply #3:
As you can see from these angles, the very tight 'Blimp' knots make it look like a bug with weird eyes and antennas. No wander, the English translation of my name is "Bumble bee"!

 In fact, the first name I thought of was "Bumblebee's Fly'n-Grip Loop", i.e., it flies on the twine/rope and once it pierces its dart in it, it grips harder as you pull. But if you come too close, it just flies away, i.e., a Slide and Grip hitch with an integrated loop.

 I needed quickly something practical that works, be it with stoppers big enough for extra security without worrying how roughly the loop might be handled (see "Tests" above), not "a compact, small, elegant, clever knot, where nothing is redundant - in short, a marvelous object."

... the opposing bights locking mechanism.

 I did many of those, but they did not pass the "Tests" above, they became more complicated than this one with more material, time to be tied and dressed. Probably the experts here can succeed to fulfill the requested quality. See "Challenge" above.


Evidently you thought that my references were "off topic", and that I should "stay focus on the thread", because you had not understood the direct relation of what I way saying with what you have shown !  :)

 If you had told me in the first place that my knot was that bad, then I would comprehend the reason why you showed me how my knot should have been done, which in that case, that would have been interpreted as "ON" topic.

2. ... - but one can still see the "seems" of your effort to "simulate' the working of a mechanism by a compound knot : the end result is not homogenous, at least it is not yet : perhaps you may simplify it further in the future. 

 ?? I just needed a movable pulley, e.g., a slide & grip climbing knot for the reset that has a loop acting as a pulley. Noted that the first pulleys were fixed: an "Alpine Butterfly" and a "Farmer's loop". But the next one had to be movable.

In your compound knot, I do not see the "distance" I would had wished between the original purpose, the mechanism made with mechanical parts which serves that purpose, and the final result, where the flesh and the blood are rope-made, the knot.

 Have you read "The principle of the '3-wraps minimum' of my knot:" in the reply #7, which I updated in my tutorial in the reply #3 as:
"The principle or mechanism of the 'Bourdon's Slide & Grip loop' "? But stoppers where necessary for extra security with the only rope I had to create the knot, i.e., a yellow synthetic slippery rope from a $1 store.

3.  I had not referred to ABoK#200 - #201 for no reason !

 I have found the ABoK#200, but not the #201. Do you have a link?


knowing the location of the anchor(s) and how the load is hooked to the system. It will be much easier to grasp how the whole system works once they are established.
I have shown to you CLEAR pictures of simple, good knots, based on the Cow hitch, which use a mechanical advantage - I believe you should be able to tie them and analyse them ! In a hitch or a binder, there is no "anchor", for KnotGod s sake !  :) We do immobilize and secure the ends, but we do not attach them somewhere !

 When you said in the Reply #10:
(*). See the attached picture, for a quick and dirty sketch : the two axes, with the pair of pulleys on each of them ( 1 and 2 ),

 I am sorry for having taken your analogy of pulleys as a real pulley system as define here. I took it at the first level instead of analogically.


 Bottom line, I value the precious time you took to guide me into this field of ingenuity with a piece of rope that looks so simple, just like a pro in music that makes it look so easy to play the instrument.

 Who knows, I might come back with the version 2.0 of my knot, if someone else did not succeeded the "Challenge" above.

Regards,
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 11:49:25 AM by Dan.Bourdon »
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xarax

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Re: The "Bourdon's Slide & Grip Loop"
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2014, 11:48:25 AM »
   Do you know a slide and grip hitch that has a loop ?

  You mean, a "loop" which serves as a "handle" ( so, not an "eye", or a "nipping loop" ).
  There are some ( symmetric or not ) climbing hitches where there are two ends coming out of the "nub", which then are joined together somehow, so the pull by the weight of the climber can be distributed on both ends. In particular, I can imagine that one can always join together the two ends of any "symmetric" climbing hitch, like the Prusik, or of the symmetric "grip" ( "tight" ) symmetric hitches, like Rat Tail stopper, the TackleClamp or the Double Cow hitch, in order to get a "handle". This part of the hitch is not very important - if the "nub" of the hitch, the part that is in contact with the object, connects the wraps together and "locks" the ends, is already a good or a bad knot, any such "handle", with any additional "loop" or knot joining the two ends would be required, will not add or subtract anything regarding the initial good or bad quality of the knot.

" elegant": I did not know that any new knot should pass the 'decorative' category.

  It is not the "decorative" category, it is the "beauty" category... Well, many knot tyers, even if they have many knotting years behind them, never manage to learn this - but I understand you are a newbie in this field, so you will have plenty of time and opportunities to learn it, and come to appreciate the value of symmetry  ( which means an easy to be remembered and inspected knot ), of nice curves ( which means wide, gentle curvatures, so the tensile forces are distributed and dissipated by more segments within the knot s nub ), of few fully functional elements and none partially functioning or redundant ones ( which means economy of tying and untying time and material, and a smaller cross section and volume ), etc. First, we learn to make working tools. Then, we learn to make beautiful such tools - which are working even better ! Ford T and Ferrari, for example...  :) 
 
  Any genius out there who can make ... and pass the tests above ?

   You have misunderstood what a knot tyers does... He is not "a genius" or a rocket scientist :) who creates something out of nothing - he is just one who happens to "meet" a good knot, while he is touring in KnotLand ! Knots are like very simple mathematical theorems, there are not man-made, they "exist", potentially, even if nobody has happened to notice how they could had been utilised. It is the knot itself which is ingenious !  We do not make plans in advance, and long lists of criteria to be passed and of purposes to be fulfilled, and then tie / create out of nothing a particular knot that meets all those ! We just happen to find a simple enough knot ( which could had been found by anybody thousands of years ago, because it is just but one simple tangle of ropes, for KnotGod s sake ! ), out of the many that can be tied, which we can then utilize in a particular way - a way that was not "built in" the knot, the very moment Universe, and 3D space, and flexible materials were created ! :) See the Prusik : It is just a "doubled" / two pairs of wraps Cow hitch, which, in its turn, is just a "doubled" / two wraps bight. The moment you have this Universe, you get the potentiality of the Cow hitch and the Prusik, and the probability of some intelligent beings with fingers, who will form the shape of those knots with a piece of rope. However, the probability of some even more ( or much less... :) ) intelligent creatures, who will wish to climb on the peaks of steep, rocky mountains, just because they are there, and they will wish to do this by using ropes, and not hot-ait balloons or helicopters, is even more minuscule... :). Prusik was one of those creatures, who happened to notice that he could utilize this particular simple tangle ( formed, without doubt, thousands of times before by thousands of people, while they were playing with ropes, since 40.000 BC... ), as a tool for this purpose. He did not MAKE this knot, he was not a cook who cooked a knot some client has ordered ! :) He used an "existing" knot as a tool for climbing, just as farmers in ancient Babylonia and Egypt used triangles and their geometrical properties as tools for measuring their fields. ( Notice that I place the "existing" between "question marks" - it will be a matter of endless debate, if a mathematical theorem or a knot is "discovered" or 'invented". However, even if they are "discovered", they are not discovered by any brave explorers, and if they are "invented", they are not invented by any geniuses ! It is not any more difficult to tie a knot, than doing elementary arithmetic or geometry - it is just that people do not do this very often, perhaps because they do not really need knots any more, or because the "old" knots "do the job", so they do not find it worth the trouble to lose any more time to figure out new ones. So, no heros or geniuses of any kind or magnitude involved here, I am afraid... I had "invented / discovered" (= met ) some knots, and I know ! )
   Starting from a list of purposes and requirements, and trying to "built' a rope-made tool / object to satisfy them, is the wrong way to tie a knot. Starting from a simple tangle, and see if and how you can use it as a practical knot, is a much more productive way to proceed, IMHO. 

   I did many of those, but they did not pass the "Tests" above, they became more complicated than this one with more material, time to be tied and dressed.

   Did you tied the Double Cow hitch ? Are two Cow hitches, the one next to the other, "more complicated... with more material, time to be tied and dressed" ? I do not say that the Double Cow hitch, is a "slide and grip" hitch, it is just a "grip" ( = tight" ) hitch, but it is very simple, in its form and its concept. You can also tie a Double Prusik, which is an even tighter 8-wrap "grip" hitch.
   I have watched how an ex-navy sailor ties a Rat Tail Stopper. Believe me, he does it in seconds, and it is the simplest thing you can imagine !
   I do not say that there is not any other hitch, or that there can be found no other hitch like those : I only say that your hitch looks too artificially articulated to me...  :)

   If you had told me in the first place that my knot was that bad,

   I did NOT tell you that your knot is THAT bad- or even that is bad ! I said that your knot is not as simple as I would had wished, it looks like it is still on the designing board, like a compound knotting mechanism which has not achieved the integrity of one coherent whole, the parts of which have not been fused together as much as in other rope-made mechanisms, etc... but I had NOT said that it is "such a bad knot" !
   ANY complex enough tangle of ropes will "do the job" and fulfil any long list of criteria - except the criterion it should be a simple, easy to remember, tie and untie knot, at about the same footing of already existing knots. See the Prussik : It is a "slide and grip" climbing hitch, which is perhaps / almost the simplest knot that can serve such a purpose. I am sure that, if Prusik himself had made a long list of requirements, he would nt had presented this knot, because it does not fulfil MANY of them : it does not smile, or serve hot coffee, for example... :) However, it is a good knot...

  I am sorry for having taken your analogy of pulleys as a real pulley system as

   I thought of using the term "analogy", indeed, which is a word that I happen to understand very well ( I mean, through its etymology, history and evolution of its semantics ), but, at the end, I preferred "simpler", more "recent" words, like "representation" and "simulation". I had shown a simple Cow hitch, and asked you to analyse it, and explain :
   1. If there is any mechanical advantage in it ( there is, and I have tried to show where )
   2. How one can analyse it, as a mechanical system ( I had drawn the directly "analogous" :) simple mechanism, which does the same thing, if friction is considered to be negligible ).
   I know that is is easy to analyse a simple machine : Those mechanisms have been invented and explained 2.300 years ago !  :) What I really want is to see how knots work as systems which are able to incorporate leverages and mechanical advantages - because they do ! When you tighten and "listen" a TackleClamp hitch, you understand that there is a mechanical advantage somewhere, as the pole is squeezed much more that you could had squeezed it by your bare hands. However, to analyse and calculate the forces acting within it may be more difficult - and to explain this to another guy, as I had tried to do with my sketch in the case of the humble Cow hitch, might be proved to be impossible !  :) :) :)
   I am not a good teacher, or, for that matter ( i.e., knots ), I am no teacher at all ! However, I believe that the knots I tie "are not that bad", and I can understand if a knot I see is a good knot or not. Of course, we all have an opinion, especially about ourselves !  :)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 08:06:58 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Let's recap briefly.
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2014, 12:04:18 AM »
Challenge:

 Any genius out there who can make a "Icicle Hitch Using the End" and from frame #9, lock both ends in that knot to form a loop without a bend in it, without stopper and pass the tests above?

My initial thought is to have the "loop" (eye) NOT be
the ends cleverly secured, but to be the bight worked
through some binding cleverly built in earlier steps
that binds the ends.  This is a strategic thought w/o
yet much attempt to implement.

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 07:02:20 AM by Dan_Lehman »

DerekSmith

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Re: The "Bourdon's Slide & Grip Loop"
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2014, 12:40:31 AM »
Hi Daniel

Welcome to the IGKT and well done for having worked through the production of your new knot that you developed to perform a desired function.

In addition, well done on the production of such amazing graphics.

For the most part I was able to follow the flow of the cord together with your written instruction, to create your knot.  However, the very last few steps were not clear and I was unable to reproduce your knot.

This brings me to a criticism of your knot - it is too complicated to describe and therefore not likely to be taken up by other users when there are so many grip hitches which will perform this task and which remain very easy to describe and are memorable to tie.

Xarax also falls into the trap of producing overcomplicated (yet beautiful) knots which again will never be taken up by mainstream users because of their complexity, when far simpler variants work perfectly well.

However, despite this criticism, you should be well proud that you have satisfied a need by the creation of your own knot - you are indeed a knotter.

Derek

Dan.Bourdon

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Re: Re: Let's recap briefly.
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2014, 05:47:58 AM »
̰ ̃   ҈ ֹˌ  ⁀·⁀ Hi Dan_Lehman, ٩̢ ̗(Ӧ̮Ӧ)̢ ̗۶

Welcome to my thread. I have worked on my knot for hours with your strategy. I have found many ways to lock the loop without stopper. Unfortunately, they all failed the "bad treatments" listed in my reply #15, i.e., "Tests". But I kept trying until I came up with the Version 2.0 that will be post shortly.

Regards,
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 11:50:03 AM by Dan.Bourdon »
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Dan.Bourdon

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Re: The "Bourdon's Slide & Grip Loop"
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2014, 06:22:24 AM »
̰ ̃   ҈ ֹˌ  ⁀·⁀ Hi DerekSmith, ٩̢ ̗(Ӧ̮Ӧ)̢ ̗۶

Welcome to my thread. Thanks for all your criticism, that is what I am here for.

I presume that those who find my knot difficult are not familiar with the climbing and arbosist 'slide & grip' hitches. By trying or revisiting these hitches:
it will be easier to understand my "Slide & Grip LOOP".

However, the very last few steps were not clear and I was unable to reproduce your knot.

You are probably not the only one. Therefore, I need to know which steps are not clear enough to reformulate (translate) them.

Even though my Version 1 is fine for certain applications where the load does not move and the security is not an issue, I am preparing to post my Version 2.0 where the ending is totally changed. Hint... no more big stoppers!

Regards,
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 11:50:51 AM by Dan.Bourdon »
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Dan.Bourdon

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The Version 2.0
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2014, 07:28:40 AM »
̰ ̃   ҈ ֹˌ  ⁀·⁀ Greetings, ̊٩̷ֹ̢̊ ̗(Ӧֹ̮Ӧ)̢ ̗۶

⊱ๆ̮⎰ֹ̐̈́ The Bourdon's Slide & Grip loop v2.0  ̐̈́⎱ጋ̊̈́⊰

  There are only three ways to complete the knot securely with the worse type of rope there is: a yellow stiff rope from a $1 store. It is three strand twisted anti-clockwise where each one is made of a bunch of fibers twisted clockwise. Many knots bounce loose with that rope...

  • For climbing and asborist, the stoppers are replaced by two spliced ends and hooked together with a carabineer.

    For all other applications:
  • The carabineer and the spliced ends are replaced by a bend of your choice. I would like to know which one is the smallest and the flattest.
  • To replace the stoppers with hitches around to the last wrap, the one that changes direction. But before those, some locking mechanisms are knitted at the root of the loop the following way:

Important update

  Forget about the How-To that was described below, because I have improved it. It is now more symmetric, robust and looks as a unit of three harmonized modules. It reminds me of the starship Enterprise, e.g., the loop (the saucer), the gripping section (the main part of the ship) and the two parallel locks (the two parallel engines).

  I came up with many types of locking mechanisms with a stiff slippery bouncing rope that passed the vigorous 'wriggling' Tests listed in my reply #15. But those were too complex to 'knit' properly and to remember. That experimental research helped me to comprehend deeper the relationship among the tensile, the friction, the mechanical advantage produced by one or more pulley system(s) within the knot.

  I will reveal my new version in an easy to follow tutorial as soon as my 'time consuming' drawings are completed. Then, I will add some information about the motive of each step, i.e., the reasoning behind each curve, its purpose, how it relates with the three types of pulley systems within my knot, etc.

I am looking forwards to discuss your impressions.

Regards,
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 10:12:28 AM by Dan.Bourdon »
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DerekSmith

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Re: The "Bourdon's Slide & Grip Loop"
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2014, 07:07:37 PM »
...

Welcome to my thread. Thanks for all your criticism, that is what I am here for.

I presume that those who find my knot difficult are not familiar with the climbing and arbosist 'slide & grip' hitches. By trying or revisiting these hitches:
it will be easier to understand my "Slide & Grip LOOP".


Hi Dan, in fact I climb regularly.  My preferred hitches are the Prussic and the VT, both are used on my climbing rig.  I am familiar with the other hitches you have listed but choose not to use them because of their unnecessary complexity for no advantage.

I do not wish in any way to run down your invention, nor to put you off from what I consider to be the most important aspect of knotting - vis, development.  But I would ask you first to consider what advantages your hitch offers over say the VT, which is ridiculously easy to make?

Derek

Dan.Bourdon

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Re: The "Bourdon's Slide & Grip Loop"
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2014, 11:03:15 AM »
̰ ̃   ҈ ֹˌ  ⁀·⁀ Hi DerekSmith, ٩̢ ̗(Ӧ̮Ӧ)̢ ̗۶

 While waiting for your definition of a VT, I can add to the Usages listed in the beginning of my tread that my hitch is a 'compound knot'. That means it is two hitches in one, i.e., a "Inline Loop" that can "Slide & Grip" like a movable pulley in a compound and a complex pulley systems. You can see it also as a "Slide & Grip" climbing hitch that has one to four independent loops.

Examples:
  • You can hook your tools and luggage on the rope while climbing or working on a tree.
  • You might need a movable handle when there is nothing to grab.
  • I am not a climber. So, there might be other advantages.

 My hitch is quick and very easy to do when it is made with a spliced ends rope. Just insert a carabineer in both eyes, instead of weaving around to lock the ends, which takes time and material.

Regards,

 โ̢ ̗(͡ө̮̃ ̮̃͡ө̃)̢̃ ̗۶̑ Knot Tyers, it would be inspiring to read how you utilized my hitch.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 11:47:17 AM by Dan.Bourdon »
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DerekSmith

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Re: The "Bourdon's Slide & Grip Loop"
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2014, 01:58:14 PM »
Hi Dan,

You can see a video of tying the VT here.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EPkKXNf0Ys

By the way, I don't know if it is a fault with my browser, but your posts display with a load of brightly coloured squiggles which appear quite meaningless.  Are they supposed to be there and if so, what do they mean?

Derek

Dan.Bourdon

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Re: The "Bourdon's Slide & Grip Loop"
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2014, 07:09:00 AM »
̰ ̃   ҈ ֹˌ  ⁀·⁀ Hi Derek, ٩̢ ̗(Ӧ̮Ӧ)̢ ̗۶
This relates to everybody who read and write a document on paper and on the screen.

By the way, I don't know if it is a fault with my browser, but your posts display with a load of brightly coloured squiggles which appear quite meaningless.

 Those "squiggles" are my original smiles and hieroglyphs that I created with Unicode Standard characters:

 "Unicode provides a unique number for every character, no matter what the platform, no matter what the program, no matter what the language. It is a character coding system designed to support the worldwide interchange, processing, and display of the written texts of the diverse languages and technical disciplines of the modern world. In addition, it supports classical and historical texts of many written languages."

 You see, most fonts have more than just the characters on your keyboard. Take the Copyright symbol for instance. Chances are that it is not on your keyboard. But you can write its Unicode value 'U+00A9' (in hex) with its decimal value '0169' on your numeric keypad as follow:

   Hold on the ALT key on the left side of the spacebar while you enter the four digits, then release the Alt key.

 There is no font that has all the 60,000+ characters, because it would be a file too huge to be practical. Therefore, each font has a particular series.

Are they supposed to be there and if so, what do they mean?

 Take my greeting header above for example. It is showing some wavy characters (rays), the "Cyrillic hundred thousands" sign (sun), the "almost equal to" mathematics sign (heat), the "Greek ano teleia" between two "character tie" (gliding bird) and a "beamed sixteenth notes" (its chant). The meaning of this hieroglyph is:

 "A turquoise bird gliding under a radiant sun is greeting you with a melodious chant."

 Then at the end of the greeting, my smiles waves at you, sometime offering red flowers.

 If you look at the source of this web page, you will not see those characters, but their Unicode number in decimal written in web language:

 〰 ̰ ̃ ҈ ֹ ˌ ≈   ⁀ · ⁀ ♬

 My happy signature is another hieroglyph. It shows another species of a gliding bird with wider wings that is chanting gratefully (for having red my post) under a super radiating joyful sun whose last and long ray is connected to the "OM" symbol, which means:

   "My soul appreciates yours for this exchange of ideas."

The other "squiggles" are my original smiles.

Is there anyone else who does not see my original smiles and hieroglyphs properly like this image?

To the webmaster:

 With the growing types of browsers, e.g., the e-phones and so, many cannot display the list of fonts suggested in the CSS file, even if you provide the missing file in their system with the "@face" instruction. This is due to the incompatible extension and/or the properties of their browser do not allow that font file to be installed in their system.

 The solution is to provide a "webfont" that does not need to be installed, that has four files/formats that cover all the browsers. The "webfont" can also be entirely original or edited by adding and deleting some characters. See WEBFONT GENERATOR from Font Squirrel.

 By the way, I suggest to list/provide the same fonts in the new/modify page than in the thread, because some characters are not display properly or are boldly replaced by a '?'. That makes us modify our reply again and again until an equivalent character is accepted by the thread while they all print correctly in the editing page.

Regards,

Coming up next :

⊱ๆ̮⎰ֹ̐̈́ The Bourdon's Slide & Grip loop v2.0  ̐̈́⎱ጋ̊̈́⊰

 This is for those who do not use the climbing & asborist version which replaces the stoppers by a two spliced ends rope hooked together with a carabineer and those who replaced the stoppers by a bend of their choice. See "Important update" in my Reply #21.

Do you see my original smiles and hieroglyphs like these all over my thread?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 09:00:37 AM by Dan.Bourdon »
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