Author Topic: The R-Cachet Bend  (Read 7301 times)

enhaut

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The R-Cachet Bend
« on: October 02, 2014, 06:29:39 PM »
The R-Cachet Bend

For some time I have been playing with a specific base form, the "Wheel House" (a working term), The Cachet Bend (link below) was conceive with that idea;
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4875.msg31828#msg31828

The "Wheel House" is, if some conditions are met, a dynamic mechanism acting like a cogwheel.Starting from this point I came up with many constructions that I will show in further posts.

 In the case of the Cachet Bend an overhand liaison (made before forming the Wheel House) serves to jams the rolling effect and stabilize the bend.
I had to see what will happen if we reverse the process and make the overhand after forming the "Wheel House"

The R-Cachet is the unique and surprizing result of this process.
The way it grips at the tags ends is fascinating.
It's not jamming or slipping prone. Maybe its forte, but I dont want to hurt some sensibilities I will not claim it.
The bend is stable under tension and comes with a nice release mechanism (pulling the tags in opposite directions will loosen the bend)
A seasoned tyer may agree with me if I say that this bend is in some fashion a distant relative of the Zeppeling bend.

I hope the images and explanations are clear enough leading you to try this bend.
If you choose to tye it try this;
After a tight final dressing pull the tags ends to loosen the knot and immediately pull the standings parts to undo this action, observe the movement!

Luca

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2014, 01:25:18 AM »
Hi enhaut,

Bookish+pedantic+picky note(so nothing very constructive, in conclusion ,by me):it's ABoK #1424(but I think we are waiting with curiosity to see your upcoming constructions!).

                                                                                                                     Bye!

enhaut

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2014, 08:53:54 PM »
So ABOK 1424 it is!
It's seems that I retrace an old Asley's path without knowing it!
These things happen. On the bright side I am glad to realize that I found and presented the better format (1424 over 1422).
Asley gives an Anchor symbol (reliable) to this bend.
Xarax made me realize that the "elbow" term is more adequate than "overhand" in this case.
I tried both turn and one leads to the "symetric" 1424, the other is of no importance for me, I dont like the "look" of it.
If we use the tracing method over the Wheel House technic it's difficult to obtain a symetric knot.
In my view the Wheel House permit a better control of the size an placement of the elements of the bend.
Images = revisiting the steps leading to a symetric 1424 and the original Cachet Bend (this one is not in Asley) with a retuck finish.

enhaut

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2014, 08:55:38 PM »
I am impressed Luca, you were able to recognize 1424 from my post.
From a guy who was unable to retrace correctly a simple loop that I presented some time ago it's a giant leap!
Who are the "we" you are refering to in your post? Are you involved in some kind of group ?
I made a "construction" just for you, enjoy!

Luca

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2014, 11:55:55 PM »
I am impressed Luca, you were able to recognize 1424 from my post.

 Luca=bookish+pedantic+picky guy,evidently...

From a guy who was unable to retrace correctly a simple loop that I presented some time ago it's a giant leap!

Same result=same knot...(see the "after_load.jpg" here http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4949.msg32684#msg32684 + the "after_loading.jpg" here http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4967.msg32712#msg32712  ...)

Who are the "we" you are refering to in your post? Are you involved in some kind of group ?

The only "esoteric" kind of group in which I'm involved is ... the IGKT forum community...

I made a "construction" just for you, enjoy!

Thanks,I will try it surely... ...but for now it seems to me that if one uses the tail of the first construction you show as the standing end,and operates two untuckings  of the new tail, and then do the same thing with the construction below(I am unable to recognize those two simple contructions(it's also a your term...)as absolutely identical...),he can obtains in both cases more simple and better results...

Finally, I want to reciprocate your kindness by offering to you this bend,I hope you like it!










« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 05:21:36 AM by Luca »

xarax

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2014, 12:41:05 AM »
   I hope you like it !

  For what is worth, "I" do not like it...
  A too-complex Fisherman knot - and the added complexity is in the wrong place, where it is not needed ! If those overhand knots, instead of being tied on the continuations of the Standing Ends, were tied on the Tail Ends, I would had understood the reason - now I do not. You only add two knots that are always prone to jamming, even it they are not squeezed on each other, as they do now - and you add them in exactly the appropriate location to help them jam : before the eyes of the collars, where their one leg is pulled by the 100% of the force...

« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 12:45:16 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Luca

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2014, 12:51:38 AM »
Hi xarax,

Holy words!But in fact I did not write that I like it!(sorry to disappoint somebody, but I had a fit of negativity!)

                                                                                                                             Bye!

xarax

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2014, 01:35:47 AM »
   The idea is good ! Replace the interpenetrating overhand knot or fig.8 knot, with interpenetrating nooses based on the overhand knot or the fig.8 knot - that is, interpenetrating ABoK#1114 or ABoK#1116. By using such nooses in a fisherman knot s like configuration, you tie the knots which are prone to jam on the Tail Ends, i.e. on the second legs of the eyes of the nooses, which become second legs of the eyes of the collars of the bend. So, you do NOT tie them on the continuations of the Standing Ends, where they will be pulled by the 100% of the force, and so they will jam easily.
   Axiom : No overhand or fig.8 knots tied on the continuation of the Standing End, ever !  :)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 01:37:18 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Interpenetrating ABoK#1114
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2014, 02:35:49 AM »
   Quick pictures. The knot is conceptually simple, but it may need some time to dress it properly, so the two parts will "kiss" each other nicely. I have not yet tied the interpenetrating ABoK#1116 s, which may match even better.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 11:41:24 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Luca

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2014, 03:46:14 AM »
Good!(interesting factoid,that maybe can be interesting to get some other variations (but now I'm going to sleep!):this bend has the same topology of a Reef knot + backup Overhand knots(oriented in a certain way)!)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 04:07:59 AM by Luca »

Luca

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2014, 12:39:43 AM »
Hi xarax,

To build the bend shown below I have started trustful with a Thief knot+backup Overands-form: although bulky,it is not bad to look at, and has the same type of symmetry of the Zeppelin bend ... the funny thing is that,by observing the geometry that have taken the two links, maybe they can be seen (and maybe they work as such,with all the consequences of the case ...) as retucked fig. 8s ... (but at least the whole bend should be more symmetrical than ABoK #1416 (but not the single links!))

                                                                                                                                      Bye!




xarax

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2014, 02:00:54 AM »
    Are two pictures ( actually, four, because I had taken and shown two pictures last night, with the flash, and two pictures with the daylight...) less informative than one:)
   This is exactly the same bend described at Reply#11 and shown at Reply#12. ( The 180 degrees twist of the Standing and Tail Ends inside the eyes / collars, is only of a secondary importance, if any. I had tried both versions, and decided that the one I had shown was more compact - the eyes were somewhat narrower - and more elegant. )
   Now, not only you use white ropes, which are always difficult objects to take pictures of, but you also use dirty white ropes, where one can not distinguish the dirt from the shadows !  :) :)
   However, what is interesting is your first picture : it may turn out that this bend is much easier to tie and to inspect in this elongated form, indeed. I had chosen the "compact" form, where the eyes of the two links are located at the very ends of the bend, embracing the pair of ends, and the two overhand knots at the middle of the bend, kissing each other. On the contrary, at the elongated form you show in your first picture, the overhand knots are at the ends and the eyes are at the middle of the bend. I really can not decide which of the two forms I like more...
This is not a knot.

Luca

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2014, 02:54:09 AM »
This is exactly the same bend described at Reply#11 and shown at Reply#12.

I do not think that it is so:the links in the bend I show are symmetrical respect to one another,while the links of the bend that you show are identical(please note that I have started from a Thief knot;instead,if you do the reverse path starting from the bend you show,you arrive to a Reef knot).
   
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 02:55:01 AM by Luca »

xarax

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2014, 03:08:41 AM »
the links in the bend I show are symmetrical respect to one another,while the links of the bend that you show are identical...

   The links in both knots are "symmetrical" . However, in the one they are only point-symmetric, while at the other they are also face-symmetric.
    Forget the "Reef" and the "Thief" knot "starts" : this bend is better described as two interpenetrating ABoK#1114 nooses. Especially in the elongated form, but also in the compact form, it does not really  matter if you tie two identical or two mirror-symmetric overhand "necks".

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5039.msg33205#msg33205
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 01:05:16 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: The R-Cachet Bend
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2014, 12:20:51 PM »
   Here are the pictures of the same bend, in the before-after, elongated form. The eyes/collars kiss each other, and they are located at the middle of the knot, and the overhand knots just prohibit the slippage of the Tail Ends, and they are located at the ends of the knot.
   Notice that I had used, and rearranged, the very same bend, with the Tail Ends beyond the overhands left as long as "before" ( or as after"  :))
   In this elongated form, it is much easier to tie and to inspect than in the compact form. However, as rope mechanisms, the two knots work differently - and here comes the permanent question : Should they be considered the same not, and be called by the same name, or knot ?
   ( As you see, the fact that here the overhand knots are "identical" ( congruent ) and not mirror symmetric to each other, plays an even less important role, if any, than they play in the compact form. In some such interpenetrating, fisherman knot-like bends, the two links kiss each other better ( = match better ), when they are congruent, and in some when they are mirror symmetric. The Cuboctahedral bend, shown at (1), is an example of the later case.)

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4985.msg32872#msg32872
   
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 12:23:55 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.