Author Topic: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?  (Read 16302 times)

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2014, 10:11:21 AM »
   Grogs is what the majority of boating people are now probably using when learning how to tie knots.

   I hope they use the tools that were offered to them for free, without any strings attached ( commercials, for instance ) : their own mind and their own fingers:)

The website is free and is all that I use. My mind just tunes out of any ads on websites. Can't say I could tell you what one single one of them was for on Grogs, apart from their app LOL.

The app is not free, but inexpensive.

   I do not know how the Bull Clove hitch will work when tied on Dyneema.  My interest was fuelled by the examination of a number of other such tight hitches ( some of them TIB, too ), which were presented in this Forum (1)(2)(3). While I was searching for a well-balanced, tight adjustable loop, I had noticed that the Clove hitch was an almost jammingly tight nipping structure (4) - and so I had tried it as a "lock" of the Cow hitch, in place of the double nipping loop used in the ordinary / common Bull hitch. For some other, inferior ways to improve the Bull hitch, see (5).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg30643#msg30643
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg30666#msg30666
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg32209#msg32209
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347   
5. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2166

 (  I do not know if Evans had ever read the PM I had send to him - he is a busy man, he seems to enjoy his wonderful life-style and his many interests ( among them, his many tests of ropes and knots ) so much, I did nt wish to bother him too much. )

Understanding all this better now, when I look at your Bull Clove hitch, I see that it has no tail. You have made this a hitch that is based on the Cow hitch. The Cow hitch has no tail. There are two hitches with a tail that can result from the Bull Clove hitch.

The hitch I presented in reply #6 of this thread has a tail and the hitch must be tied in this manner (or can be reversed in a mirror image way). It is a different hitch to using the other tail in your knots. The tail CANNOT be reversed. It is the hitch Evans described, but did not actually tie. I have named this new hitch the EStar-XX.

I too, have no idea yet if it will perform better, but I hope my tests at the bow on our 10 cm bollard using unsheathed Dyneema may reveal some info. Otherwise, load testing under similar conditions certainly will. These tests will be necessary regardless, as my method is very crude.

Is any member here able to perform these load tests for me using Dyneema on a large diameter 'pole' (eg 10-15 cm)? I have no access to load testing equipment.

Maybe Evans will be able to do this, but I do not really want to approach him a second time regarding this issue.

This issue is of great relevance to current sailors, as Dyneema is being used more on board boats, particularly racing yachts, but even on cruising ones like ours.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 10:12:52 AM by Seaworthy »

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2014, 10:14:17 AM »
In summary, this is the EStar-XX hitch from the front:

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2014, 10:17:20 AM »
This is the EStar-XX hitch from the back.

It can be reversed in a mirror image way around the vertical axis.

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2014, 01:20:07 PM »
P.S. Notice that NONE of them is in the "Grog" site... although they are the best we have ! So much for the quality of your beloved source of knotting wisdom !  :)

Xarax, I note you added a PS after I quoted your post and I am responding now.

What is critical when it comes to knots for sailors, is what is happening out there on the water and what information is filtering through to those using knots when sailing. There may be some wonderful knots in the threads you linked (when my internet is better I will really enjoy reading them, at the moment pages are taking ages to load and I am concentrating just on vital stuff when online).

If anyone on the forum thinks they know of new knots that may be useful for sailors, I plead with you to get them out there and visible, not just in threads here or registered somewhere.

Grog is not my "beloved source of knotting wisdom". I am just reporting here that like it or not, Grog is currently the main online source for knots for sailors, new and old.  It is easy to access, easy to search and the animations make it very easy to learn to tie the knots. They are also presented reversed. There is a nice concise explanation with each knot. It is understandably a popular site. It is what is in current use out in the real world. Books are used little now and will be used even less in the future.

If members here have discovered new knots suitable for sailing, get some load tests done, checking a wide variety of line diameters and line types (the same knot will not necessarily be the best for all line diameter or line type). If they are bends then test a variety of different diameters for the two lines (ie do the knots only work for certain combinations).  I think the most common lines currently used sailing are double braided polyester, lines with a high tech inner core like spectra with a normal cover, nylon, and more recently unsheathed Dyneema (popular now for soft shackles). Line manufacturers would probably provide line at no charge if you contacted them. They are keen for good knots to be found that are suitable for their products.

Test it, document it, report it to Grog or form a new website of your own that is as easy to use as Grogs and get that knowledge out there. If anyone would enjoy doing this I am happy to liaise between you and the sailing community.

Who else but passionate knot tying members here will be doing this? It would be a fabulous community service, not just an intellectual exercise.

PS I think that this will mean little to you, but I named the EStar-XX hitch in honour of Starzinger and Xarax. I think back in January both of you were just a breath away from discovering this new hitch that may, in time, turn out to be widely used by sailors.

I have presented this knot to Cruisers Forum. I hope someone there is able to do load tests using Dyneema and making the pole bollard diameter (eg 10-15 cm). This is where I think the EStar-XX hitch will perform better than the EStar. It may still not be a great hitch for this purpose, but if it is not, maybe some of you here can come up with different suggestions.

It would be very useful to know how much larger the bollard can be compared to the line diameter before the strength of the EStar-XX hitch becomes very poor (50% strength is deemed acceptable at the moment, as it is the best we have, I would think under 30% of line strength is getting completely unacceptable). Why such a low % may be acceptable is that the line is not just used for its strength, but for its weight.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 01:42:02 PM by Seaworthy »

xarax

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2014, 02:09:45 PM »
My mind just tunes out of any ads on websites.

  That is what you believe/hope it happens  !  :) The art and science of advertising ( or brain washing ), is thousands of years old - do not underestimate those guys ! If you let them walk freely in your mind s backyard, they will make you believe any-thing ( existing or non-existing thing :) )

  The tail CANNOT be reversed.

  In what I had shown ( and had dared to call according to what it is, i.e., just a tight Bull hitch using a Clove hitch as a "locking" "neck" ), the Standing and the Tail ends can be "reversed" - although the difference, when the hitch is tied on "ordinary" material and around a thick enough pole, is not noticeable ( and that is why I had chosen to show pictures of this hitch, where its "almost" symmetrical nature is clearly manifested ).
   Now, we can, indeed, anticipate that the "security" ( regarding the slippage of the Standing and/or Tail end ) will vary, if/when the relative diameters of the rope and the pole will vary. How much, I have no idea... It would be great to persuade somebody to test those things, but I have never been able to advertise successfully the need for any test, on any knot ... :) It seems that, regarding buying or selling ads, I am totally worthless . :)   
This is not a knot.

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2014, 02:44:44 PM »
My mind just tunes out of any ads on websites.

  That is what you believe/hope it happens  !  :) The art and science of advertising ( or brain washing ), is thousands of years old - do not underestimate those guys ! If you let them walk freely in your mind s backyard, they will make you believe any-thing ( existing or non-existing thing :) )

  The tail CANNOT be reversed.

  In what I had shown ( and had dared to call according to what it is, i.e., just a tight Bull hitch using a Clove hitch as a "locking" "neck" ), the Standing and the Tail ends can be "reversed" - although the difference, when the hitch is tied on "ordinary" material and around a thick enough pole, is not noticeable ( and that is why I had chosen to show pictures of this hitch, where its "almost" symmetrical nature is clearly manifested ).
   Now, we can, indeed, anticipate that the "security" ( regarding the slippage of the Standing and/or Tail end ) will vary, if/when the relative diameters of the rope and the pole will vary. How much, I have no idea... It would be great to persuade somebody to test those things, but I have never been able to advertise successfully the need for any test, on any knot ... :) It seems that, regarding buying or selling ads, I am totally worthless . :)   

Well of course the tail can be reversed, but what you end up with then is a different hitch. Name it whatever you like, but it is not the Bull-clove and it is NOT the EStar-XX. To form the latter the tail can only be the one I have selected. The security difference between the EStar-XX and whatever you want to call the other one may be small, but I think in Dyneema with a large diameter pole it will be obvious.

My gut instinct is that the EStar-XX will be the stronger of the two options for the above conditions. My gut reactions has served me well so far when it comes to knots LOL :). Only load testing will tell. There is a possibility of course the other currently unnamed one will be better.

I have no idea by the way what it takes to get a knot on Grog. Do you have to pay?? I would think any knot adequately tested that is shown to be a better or significantly easier knot than they currently list would make it onto their site.

If Evans ever replies to me I will ask what he had to do to get his knot accepted and I will pass on the information here.

Regarding stress testing equipment, there must be some of you that live near each other. Or does the guild have headquarters? Cannot the guild purchase a load tester? Or can't a few of you get together and buy one? Evans obviously has one. I doubt he is testing knots commercially. I think he is doing it to benefit sailors and spread the knowledge.

So, to put in a plea again to all you keen knot tyers. Can some of you step down from those lofty ivory towers and do something practical with your talents and help the community?

My thread on the double sheet bend is a classic example. I do not believe the best DSB is currently being learnt by sailors. They are scared to rock the boat and try anything different. What is being taught "must of course be right". No one here is interested. As one member here commented on my other thread "if it ain't broke why try and fix it". Very strange attitudes LOL.

If a load tester is a available to any of you, don't just look at inventing new knots. Go test all the favourites out that sailors use. There are no more than about a dozen common ones. What is best in what diameter and what materials? Is there a better alternative we should be using.

Some of our criteria are:
- Secure
- Easy to tie (even better if it can be done one handed, but at least something that could be tied by feel in the dark)
- Can be undone preferably

Then start testing salty line that has been in use. It will not necessarily perform the same way brand new line does.

As I said earlier what works for what types of materials and what diameters?

There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible, particularly as all the lines used now are not what would have been used a century or more ago when the current knots were discovered.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a weird approach.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 03:01:41 PM by Seaworthy »

roo

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2014, 03:13:02 PM »
Go test all the favourites out that sailors use. There are no more than about a dozen common ones. What is best in what diameter and what materials? Is there a better alternative we should be using.

Some of our criteria are:
- Secure
- Easy to tie (even better if it can be done one handed, but at least something that could be tied by feel in the dark)
- Can be undone preferably

Then start testing salty line that has been in use. It will not necessarily perform the same way brand new line does.

As I said earlier what works for what types of materials and what diameters?

There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible, particularly as all the lines used now are not what would have been used a century or more ago when the current knots were discovered.

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotindex.html

Enjoy.
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Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2014, 03:42:09 PM »

Enjoy.

Hi Roo
Nice to see a fellow Aussie here :).

What do you consider the most secure bend for lines of different diameter if a) the knot needs to be untied and b)it is OK if the knot has to be cut off? Does what you select work equally well for all diameters? Does this work in both double braid and nylon (doubt it would work in unsheathed Dyneema)? Can nylon and double braid be combined?

These are the types of things sailors need to know.

I will look at your knot list more closely later. The trigger bend I am totally unfamiliar with. I am all consumed with the EStar-XX hitch at the moment and I am keen to go test it at the bow on our bollard using Dyneema tomorrow. It was too hot today.

By the way, I just love using a Yosemite finish on a bowline.
It would be great to know if the water bowline is better or worse and for what types of lines and diameters. Do you know which is the better of the two? Why did you select the water bowline and not an ordinary bowline with a Yosemite finish?

Sorry,  if I come across as sounding so insistent about this practical importance of these issues to sailors, but they truly are important to us :).


« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 05:48:03 PM by Seaworthy »

roo

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2014, 04:28:27 PM »
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotindex.html

Enjoy.

Hi Roo
Nice to see a fellow Aussie here :).
It's just an Aussie-sounding nickname.  I reside in the US.  I'll have to get to your queries another time as other duties call.  It may warrant the start of a new thread to keep things on track.  You might state your application that requires dyneema.
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Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2014, 05:10:30 PM »
It's just an Aussie-sounding nickname.  I reside in the US.  I'll have to get to your queries another time as other duties call.  It may warrant the start of a new thread to keep things on track.  You might state your application that requires dyneema.

With its strength and low weight Dyneema is being used more and more on board yachts, particularly racing boats. It would be used dramatically more if we knew how to secure knots in this material.

One use for example would be the initial portion of a snubber line (ie between the bow and the nylon). A splice is no good in this application as the snubber is often under considerable tension and you want to be able to throw this off in a hurry. How do you attach the Dyneema securely to the cleat or bollard at the bow so that it can still be thrown off? The forces on the snubber and chain can be considerable. If Dyneema is used as the initial bit of the snubber it needs to hold well - we want to know the best possible way of securing it.

We need the best loop, hitch and bend, preferably one that can be tied quickly in the dark, and preferably undone (although the best one if it does not have to be undone would be great too). We generally rely on muscle memory for tying knots, so they can't be complicated. We apparently have a secure stopper at the moment, but I find it is relatively slow to tie.

There are fabulous new materials out there that we just can't utilise well as we don't know how to secure them.

Lots of boats now use soft shackles, even cruising yachts (why I have a fair bit of new Dyneema on board at the moment). Under load these soft shackles amazingly break at the stopper knot, not at the peak of the bit that goes over it. A Diamond Head is currently used as the best stopper knot (it meeds to be bulky so the loop of the shackle will never slide over the top. What would be a better knot to use at the end of these?

All that aside, just the best knots in all the common line use eg double braided polyester and sheathed spectra etc would be great. All the old traditional knots were designed for natural fibres that did not slip easily. They are not necessarily the best knots to tie now.

For example I am challenging what is the best double sheet bend to use just in plain common double braided polyester of different diameters. No one seems at all concerned that the version currently taught is not the more secure of the two versions (one version is just a snugged version of the other and very oddly the un-snugged version is taught).

We need so much more information and not of the variety "how about this, give it a go". No one wants to be using knots they are uncertain about.

I could go on and on...... :D
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 06:12:47 PM by Seaworthy »

xarax

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2014, 09:44:27 PM »
The security difference ... may be small, but I think in Dyneema with a large diameter pole it will be obvious.

  Let me restate that the Bull Clove hitch I had tied and tried was meant to be a "tight hitch" ( which means, to be a hitch and/or a binder as well ) if/when tied on "ordinary" material. I have no idea how it will behave if/when tied on Dyneema - and I do not even can tell if it will hold at all !
   My gut instinct tells me to avoid predictions of how those very slippery materials work - I would had never anticipated that the triple fisherman s knot can slip, but it turned out that it does ! However, regarding security, I think that if the #1 Bull Clove hitch, or whatever you wish to call it, will or will not hold, the #2 Bull hitch will or will not hold, too. What percentage of the MBS will they hold, that I can not even imagine.. Now, regarding strength, I think that the differences will be even less, if any. Strength is a black box to me, into which I was never able to enter - not that I had any particular interest to do this !

 
 
 Can't a few of you get together and buy one ?
 Can some of you step down from those lofty ivory towers and do something practical ...and help the community ?

  I guess that we should first be able to talk to each other politely and respectfully, which, when it comes to knot-tyers, to my knowledge, is a very difficult thing !  :) 

   There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible...

   The exactly same thing can be said for ALL the "best" knots, used in ALL fields, rescue  and climbing included ! But we should not be discouraged by this : It was always like that:)   
This is not a knot.

Wed

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2014, 10:56:41 PM »
I have no idea by the way what it takes to get a knot on Grog. Do you have to pay?? I would think any knot adequately tested that is shown to be a better or significantly easier knot than they currently list would make it onto their site.
Basically, you contact them and ask. Nicely. The Grogono family has a contact page.

Quote
Regarding stress testing equipment, there must be some of you that live near each other. Or does the guild have headquarters? Cannot the guild purchase a load tester? Or can't a few of you get together and buy one? Evans obviously has one. I doubt he is testing knots commercially. I think he is doing it to benefit sailors and spread the knowledge.
Is there such a testing tool to be purchased? As knots are rather varied, chances are better that you rig something that tests the parameters you seek on a per knot basis.

Quote
So, to put in a plea again to all you keen knot tyers. Can some of you step down from those lofty ivory towers and do something practical with your talents and help the community?
One thing to remember here is that the IGKT is not an official body or an academy. There are no certificates handed out for levels of skill. The membership allows you to use the logotype. The IGKT is a bunch of people interested in knots.

Quote
There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible, particularly as all the lines used now are not what would have been used a century or more ago when the current knots were discovered.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a weird approach.
Feel free to hop to it. Nobody is paid to do that sort of work. And few are dedicated full time to knots.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2014, 11:31:14 PM »
What do you consider the most secure bend for lines of different diameter if
a) the knot needs to be untied and
b)it is OK if the knot has to be cut off?
Does what you select work equally well for all diameters?
Does this work in both double braid and nylon
(doubt it would work in unsheathed Dyneema)?
Can nylon and double braid be combined?
You're confusing things.  "dbl. braid" is construction,
"nylon" is fibre --which might come in dbl.braid.

"doubt it would work in (bare) Dyneema" : indeed,
there is a thread or two on this site of recent vintage
with EStar contributing the most amazing results of
things that didn't work --absolutely incredible!!!
(E.g., #1452 with the SParts turning 360 vs 180
degrees and so collaring each other, and then the
tails tucked twice !!!  -THAT slipped, eventually!
(You might search for "bowled over", which is how
I described it.)

Possibly, EStar has been working with the worst of
HMPE material (type & thinness !?), as his results
are more severe than some others.  (OTOH, others
are not reporting quite so clearly as is he.)

Quote
By the way, I just love using a Yosemite finish on a bowline.
It would be great to know if the water bowline is better or worse
and for what types of lines and diameters.  Do you know which is the
better of the two?  Why did you select the water bowline and not
an ordinary bowline with a Yosemite finish?
Because the SPart does more turning in the one
case, and this is the part one is concerned about
coming loose; it is also the part that can just roll
and flow rope out from the eye into the SPart in
HMPE line.

BTW, beware the maybe false distinction between
sheathed and bare HMPE : in some cases, it is the
slippage of the HMPE core that, despite appearances
of a knot holding --because it's only holding the sheath
of more frictive fibre--, weakens the knot, eventually
--one just can't see it!  (OTOH, I have read of anglers
just putting simple sheaths on their "gel-spun" HMPE
lines and reaping benefits of strength !?)


--dl*
====

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2014, 02:18:35 PM »
I have no idea by the way what it takes to get a knot on Grog. Do you have to pay?? I would think any knot adequately tested that is shown to be a better or significantly easier knot than they currently list would make it onto their site.
Basically, you contact them and ask. Nicely. The Grogono family has a contact page.

Well, why aren't members doing this? There is no need to be scornful of this site. It is what the general public are accessing nowadays as a primary resource if they want to tie knots. Don't be restricted by not wanting to contribute to a commercial site. The reality nowadays is that no one is going to set up and manage a website like this just as a community service.

Regarding stress testing equipment, there must be some of you that live near each other. Or does the guild have headquarters? Cannot the guild purchase a load tester? Or can't a few of you get together and buy one? Evans obviously has one. I doubt he is testing knots commercially. I think he is doing it to benefit sailors and spread the knowledge.
Is there such a testing tool to be purchased? As knots are rather varied, chances are better that you rig something that tests the parameters you seek on a per knot basis.

I have never seen load testing equipment, but all you need is a load cell, something to attach the loop through if testing bends or to be wrapped around if testing hitches and some means of tightening (eg a winch secured down). Just keep increasing the tension until the line slips or knot breaks and the load cell will record the max force exerted. It is not very complicated, just unfortunately something I cannot do while on the water (seven years full away from land now).

Evans set his up. I will look up and see if he described it on the Cruisers Forum.

There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible, particularly as all the lines used now are not what would have been used a century or more ago when the current knots were discovered.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a weird approach.
Feel free to hop to it. Nobody is paid to do that sort of work. And few are dedicated full time to knots.

I didn't mean to step on any toes. I would have thought anyone with a passion for knots would love the challenge of doing this and it would not be classed as "work". If I were land based I would happily potter away hours on this. I have now read Evans' load test results pdf that a member provided the link to. Such interesting results, dispelling lots of myths. See Dan Lehman's comments on this - one was "absolutely incredible".

I can't believe no one here is interested in the strength of knots. Xarax said it was a 'black box' mystery. This is the 'practical' not the 'decorative' section of the forum isn't it? Why are knots used mainly if not for some kind of security? Speed of tying may be an issue, ability to untie may also be, whether or knot can be tied one handed is also important, but surely security is way up on top of the list?

Strength of a knot seems to be assessed here on how the knot looks. This is sometimes misleading, and often highly so.** I think load test results are vital when creating new practical knots. Discover new knots, test them out (repeated results, multiple materials, multiple diameters) and get the best ones into use. Strive for improvement. It is not just people engaging in recreational activities who would benefit, think of how much this may help rescue operations etc.

**One reason for this is that some newer materials (that may be stronger and lighter) have lower melting points. Burying a section of the knot too much can mean heat is not dissipated as the knot tightens rapidly under load and it will snap at this point.
So many other aspects as well. Yes, I too look at a knot and have a gut feeling of "that just looks right", but this can be very misleading.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 02:36:32 PM by Seaworthy »

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2014, 03:06:07 PM »
What do you consider the most secure bend for lines of different diameter if
a) the knot needs to be untied and
b)it is OK if the knot has to be cut off?
Does what you select work equally well for all diameters?
Does this work in both double braid and nylon
(doubt it would work in unsheathed Dyneema)?
Can nylon and double braid be combined?
You're confusing things.  "dbl. braid" is construction,
"nylon" is fibre --which might come in dbl.braid.

LOL. Sorry, I missed out a word in my haste. "Polyester" was supposed to be written after 'braid'. That is the standard line used for sheets on most recreational boats nowadays.

"doubt it would work in (bare) Dyneema"
: indeed,

My attempt at humour was lost :(
Will put a smiley in next time.

By the way, I just love using a Yosemite finish on a bowline.
It would be great to know if the water bowline is better or worse
and for what types of lines and diameters.  Do you know which is the
better of the two?  Why did you select the water bowline and not
an ordinary bowline with a Yosemite finish?
Because the SPart does more turning in the one
case, and this is the part one is concerned about
coming loose; it is also the part that can just roll
and flow rope out from the eye into the SPart in
HMPE line.

I think you are right regarding the twin turn in the standing part making it stronger than the tail being secured an additional time. But stronger by how much? Are we talking less than 5%? Or 10? Or 20? And how much does this vary between materials? Is it the same for nylon as double braided polyester? Is it the same when the line is wet?

The two knots require very different method of tightening and time taken. A water bowline is very fiddly to tighten up. A Yosemite is super quick. I really want to know if going to the trouble of tying a water bowline is worth the effort. I would do it for a 20% improvement, I would certainly not for 5%. Can anyone here answer that? Speed is often of the essence.