Author Topic: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?  (Read 16400 times)

xarax

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2014, 04:48:50 AM »
I think altering which is the standing end alters the dynamics of this knot. It is no longer the same knot...

In theory, you are right - but here we are talking about practical knots !  :) In my ropes / poles, I  have not been able to pinpoint any visible differences, even after really hard loading.

and in a slippery material like Dyneema the differences may be more obvious.

  Perhaps - or they may be smoothed out even more !  :-\  :-\  :-\
  Tie and try them !
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Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2014, 05:02:09 AM »
I think altering which is the standing end alters the dynamics of this knot. It is no longer the same knot...

In theory, you are right - but here we are talking about practical knots !  :) In my ropes / poles, I  have not been able to pinpoint any visible differences, even after really hard loading.

and in a slippery material like Dyneema the differences may be more obvious.

  Perhaps - or they may be smoothed out even more !  :-\  :-\  :-\
  Tie and try them !

Will do. I have no load testing gear on board, but I have bollards and I have unsheathed Dyneema and I have big winches :).

It will be an interesting exercise. I think the EStar will slip easily. I think the Bull Clove won't.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 05:03:15 AM by Seaworthy »

xarax

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2014, 05:09:34 AM »
I think the EStar will slip easily. I think the Bull Clove won't.

   That is almost sure - but I was not talking about those "two knots" in my previous posts ! I was talking about the Bull Clove hitch, loaded the one or the other way / free end. However, we should also be sure first about what, exactly, EStar hitch s creator himself had in mind, which was the knot he thinks it is the one that should bear this name, before we jump into those conclusions.
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Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2014, 05:12:48 AM »
Xarax, I am a novice here, but with a very keen interest in knots.  I love tying them and I am intrigued by what makes them work (enjoy looking at the components). I have no knot tying books on board and up until yesterday no copy of Ashleys. All my new knot knowledge in the last 7 years has just come from the internet.

I live on board a yacht. I do use knots for a practical reason daily. So practical differences are what are important in my day to day life, not the theoretical ones.

I have been thinking about all this and I have a few questions.

I arrived at your knot just by tying what Evans described. This is NOT, however how he tied it in his pdf, nor how it is presented in Grogs.

That is why I thought Grogs was wrong - it did not match his description. In fact, Evans tied it 'wrongly' I think.

I could see instantly when I first saw the knot in Grogs that if the knot was tied around a bollard (a big diameter pole) it was likely to be much weaker than the another way (what I now find is your Bull Clove hitch - in Cruisers Forum I laughingly called it the SWL-EStar).

What happens in this situation with laying claim to the knot? Evans has described your knot, but he has tied something different. The method of arriving at a knot I think is irrelevant if the final result is the same knot. This is not the case here though. The Bull Clove is definitely not the same knot as the EStar.

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2014, 05:17:13 AM »
I think the EStar will slip easily. I think the Bull Clove won't.

   That is almost sure - but I was not talking about those "two knots" in my previous posts ! I was talking about the Bull Clove hitch, loaded the one or the other way / free end. However, we should also be sure first about what, exactly, EStar hitch s creator himself had in mind, which was the knot he thinks it is the one that should bear this name, before we jump into those conclusions.

Yes, I realise you were saying that :). See my comment below. By 'two options' I mean the two options of what to make the tail in the Bull Clove Hitch:

For what it is worth, my photo in Reply #6 shows which end I think is the standing one for the stronger of the two options.

I think altering which is the standing end alters the dynamics of this knot. It is no longer the same knot, and in a slippery material like Dyneema the differences may be more obvious.

Xarax, if you are laying claim to both, I would name each one differently :).


Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2014, 05:20:15 AM »
.....However, we should also be sure first about what, exactly, EStar hitch s creator himself had in mind, which was the knot he thinks it is the one that should bear this name, before we jump into those conclusions.

Xarax, I think Evans described the same knot as the Bull Clove when he was describing the EStar, but this is certainly NOT what he tied. He tied something weaker.

What happens in this situation? Surely his images of how to tie it rules, not how he describes it?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 05:21:34 AM by Seaworthy »

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2014, 05:25:47 AM »
I think the EStar will slip easily. I think the Bull Clove won't.

   That is almost sure - but I was not talking about those "two knots" in my previous posts ! I was talking about the Bull Clove hitch, loaded the one or the other way / free end. However, we should also be sure first about what, exactly, EStar hitch s creator himself had in mind, which was the knot he thinks it is the one that should bear this name, before we jump into those conclusions.

I will try out the two versions on the Bull Clove also (ie selecting which end I make the tail), but I doubt I will be able to see much difference with my very crude testing methods (I can only tell by feel how much load I am applying).

I think there will be a big difference between the EStar and Bull Clove though, hence my persistence with all of this. This makes a real world difference to sailors trying to tie a hitch in Dyneema on bigger diameter objects.

xarax

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2014, 05:50:45 AM »
I live on board of a yacht.

Lucky !  :)

   What happens in this situation with laying claim to the knot ?

  We should NOT "lay claim" on any knot !

  Let me "explain" it, with the help of a saying that I had imagined right now  :).
  Man is not the measure of any-thing. Because, if the thing is a small and insignificant one, he is always greater than it. And if the thing is a great and significant one, he is always smaller than it.
   ( I almost listen the noise of Protagoras bones, as he turns in his grave !   :) 

 
   Evans has described your knot, but he has tied something different.
   The Bull Clove is definitely not the same knot as the EStar.

  There is NO "my" knot - and, for that matter, there is no "anybody s knot" ! Knots are there, in the KnotLand, and who is going to discover/meet them there "first", is only a matter of pure luck... One should not even think of having any property claims on luck:)
   I simply prefer to call the "new" knots it had happened to me to meet, with descriptive names, so the present or future knot-tyer would have an added aid, when he is memorizing them. The knot I had shown is just a variation of the well-known Bull hitch, where the double nipping loop-based nipping "neck"/"tube" has been replaced by a Clove hitch, period. So, the name Bull Clove hitch, is what the knot itself demands, not what me or anybody else wishes...
    We should simply ASK the discoverer of the EStar hitch, which knot he did tie, and if he was/is aware or interested in the differences. However, in this very simple knot, which is such a simple implementation of the almost jamming ability of the primordial Clove hitch, I, for one, would find very difficult to use a "copy-righted" name !  :) Bull Clove hitch, or something like this, sounds OK to me.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 05:57:29 AM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2014, 05:55:00 AM »
This makes a real world difference to sailors trying to tie a hitch in Dyneema on bigger diameter objects.

   You should better ask Evans about that... He knows an infinitely larger number of things on knots tied on Dyneema, than me- who had been able only to see them, in f... pictures !  :) 
This is not a knot.

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2014, 06:00:39 AM »
I live on board of a yacht.

Lucky !  :)

   What happens in this situation with laying claim to the knot ?

  We should NOT "lay claim" on any knot !

  Let me "explain" it, with the help od a saying that I had imagined right now  :).
  Man is not the measure of any-thing. Because, if the thing is a small and insignificant one, he is always greater than it. And if the thing is a great and significant one, he is always smaller than it.
   ( I almost listen the noise of Protagoras bones, as he turns in his grave !   :) 

 
   Evans has described your knot, but he has tied something different.
   The Bull Clove is definitely not the same knot as the EStar.

  There is NO "my" knot - and, for that matter, there is no "anybody s knot" ! Knots are there, in the KnotLand, and who is going to discover/meet them there "first", is only a matter of pure luck... One should not even think of having any property claims on luck:)
   I simply prefer to call the "new" knots it had happened to me to meet, with descriptive names, so the present or future knot-tyer would have an added aid, when he is memorizing them. The knot I had shown is just a variation of the well-knpwn Bull hitch, where the double nipping loop-based nipping "neck"/"tube" has been replaced by a Clove hitch, period. So, the name Bull Clove hitch, is what the knot itself demands, not what me or anybody else wishes...
    We should simply ASK the discoverer of the EStar hitch, which knot he did tie, and if he was/is aware or interested in the differences. However, in this very simple knot, which is such a simple implementation of the almost jamming ability of the primordial Clove hitch, I, for one, would find very difficult to use a "copy-righted" name !  :) Bull Clove hitch, or something like this, sounds OK to me.

Badly worded on my part LOL.
Who gets the honour of going down in history as being the inventor of the knot then?
That is my question :).

The EStar and Bull Clove are two quite different hitches. You can't call them by the same name.

Evans has obviously invented the EStar Hitch as he shows images of it.
Who invented the other hitch, the Bull Clove?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 06:10:47 AM by Seaworthy »

xarax

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2014, 06:16:02 AM »
Who gets the honour of going down in history as being the inventor of the knot then?

  As I had pointed out in my previous post, and I had repeated a number of times in this Forum, I think that the simple knots are "discovered', not "invented" - as Platonic this might sound !  :) Given the laws of the Universe we know, the possible simplest knots are determined right from the first billionth of billionth of a second ... A more complex knot, like the decorative knots, may well be created somewhere, but it would most probably not - as any work of art may have been created somewhere in the Universe already, but, even if this had happened, it would had been a very rare event, a miraculous event, indeed.
   Now, if you believe in eternal after life, you are not interested in history, of course ! And if you do not believe in eternal after life, or in any after life at all, why on Earth or Heavens are you interested in what would happen after the atoms composing your ex-body would had been spread in a cold, almost empty expanding Universe ?  :)

Who invented the other hitch, the Bull Clove?

God knows !  :)
   
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 06:23:17 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2014, 07:15:40 AM »
Who gets the honour of going down in history as being the inventor of the knot then?

  As I had pointed out in my previous post, and I had repeated a number of times in this Forum, I think that the simple knots are "discovered', not "invented" - as Platonic this might sound !  :) Given the laws of the Universe we know, the possible simplest knots are determined right from the first billionth of billionth of a second ... A more complex knot, like the decorative knots, may well be created somewhere, but it would most probably not - as any work of art may have been created somewhere in the Universe already, but, even if this had happened, it would had been a very rare event, a miraculous event, indeed.
   Now, if you believe in eternal after life, you are not interested in history, of course ! And if you do not believe in eternal after life, or in any after life at all, why on Earth or Heavens are you interested in what would happen after the atoms composing your ex-body would had been spread in a cold, almost empty expanding Universe ?  :)

I like your attitude :).
My question was asked simply from curiosity. I totally agree it makes no difference in the big scheme of things.

Now to get back to the main issue.
What Evans calls an EStar is, I very strongly suspect, not the best version of this bend and the two versions need to be named differently. The two versions in fact end up looking quite different when tied.

I propose the second version is called the EStar-XX :).

Just like the left handed bowline is not the same as the bowline and would only be used if a novice had tied the bowline incorrectly, the EStar is not the same as an EStar-XX and the latter should be used in preference.

So, yes, Grog have animated the EStar Hitch correctly, but I think it is not the best alternative. These two bends need to be tested in unsheathed Dyneema on a "pole" of wide diameter, such as a bollard (ours on board is 10 cm, probably even thicker diameters such as 15+ cm that are found on some jetties, should be tested if 10 cm is inconclusive).

« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 07:19:04 AM by Seaworthy »

xarax

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2014, 07:46:02 AM »
   I will repeat this for the last time : It is of no importance whatsoever what the "Animated Grog" site selects and presents as "EStar hitch" ! ( Although I doubt that the author of the hitch had not been involved in this selection/presentation ! )
   What matters is what the author had tied - and the knot he himself had shown that he had tied, on pictures published either in in his pdf file (1) or in his site (2), is obviously NOT the Bull Clove hitch ! What also matters is what he had in his mind - because he might well had posted the wrong pictures ( it happens ! ). On this problem, I can imagine only one solution : ask him !  :)
 
   1. http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/estar.pdf
   2. http://www.bethandevans.com/load.htm
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 07:58:23 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Seaworthy

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2014, 08:30:05 AM »
   I will repeat this for the last time : It is of no importance whatsoever what the "Animated Grog" site selects and presents as "EStar hitch" ! ( Although I doubt that the author of the hitch had not been involved in this selection/presentation ! )

Actually, it matters tremendously. Grogs is what the majority of boating people are now probably using when learning how to tie knots. The site is repeatedly recommended on forums. Many people now use tablets and the Grog app is also recommended. Frighteningly rapidly, books are being used less and less. I started with maybe 200 on board and am now down to less than 20. The Kindle is King. The internet is becoming the source of learning and Grogs is at the moment the gold standard for internet sites on how to tie boating knots. Dyneema is a tricky line to work with and currently the EStar hitch is the best hitch available to sailors. If the EStar-XX is better, this should be made known.

Since viewing the pdf, I see that Grogs has presented the knot just how Evans tied it in his pdf. I may be wrong, but I think there is a better version, the one I have called the EStar-XX. It would benefit sailors if this was load tested on common bollards eg 10 cm such as ours, and Grog modified if necessary.

What matters is what the author had tied - and the knot he himself had shown that he had tied, on pictures published either in in his pdf file (1) or in his site (2), is obviously NOT the Bull Clove hitch ! What also matters is what he had in his mind - because he might well had posted the wrong pictures ( it happens ! ). On this problem, I can imagine only one solution : ask him !  :)
 
   1. http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/estar.pdf
   2. http://www.bethandevans.com/load.htm

I have asked the question. I sent him a personal message on the cruising forum site he is a member of with a link to the thread I started about the EStar. Despite the fact that he has logged in several times since I sent my PM, I have had no reply and he has not responded on the thread.

How long is it since you posed your questions to him that you have received no reply to?

xarax

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Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2014, 09:32:53 AM »
   Grogs is what the majority of boating people are now probably using when learning how to tie knots.

   I hope they use the tools that were offered to them for free, without any strings attached ( commercials, for instance ) : their own mind and their own fingers:)
   I do not know how the Bull Clove hitch will work when tied on Dyneema.  My interest was fuelled by the examination of a number of other such two-wrap tight hitches ( some of them TIB, too ), which were presented in this Forum (1)(2)(3)(*). While I was searching for a well-balanced, tight adjustable loop, I had noticed that the Clove hitch was an almost jammingly tight nipping structure (4) - and so I had tried it as a "lock" of the Cow hitch, in place of the double nipping loop used in the ordinary / common Bull hitch. For some other, inferior ways to improve the Bull hitch, see (5).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg30643#msg30643
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg30666#msg30666
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg32209#msg32209
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347   
5. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2166

 (  I do not know if Evans had ever read the PM I had send to him - he is a busy man, he seems to enjoy his wonderful life-style and his many interests ( among them, his many tests of ropes and knots ) so much, I did nt wish to bother him too much. )

P.S. Notice that NONE of them is in the "Grog" site... although they are the best we have ! So much for the quality of your beloved source of knotting wisdom !  :)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 09:44:44 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.