Author Topic: 8 based binder  (Read 3425 times)

SS369

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8 based binder
« on: May 05, 2014, 11:44:50 PM »
The recent discourse on binders reminded me of a binder to submit. It is based on a figure 8 which is tied on one end. the item to be bound is encircled with the cord, a Fig.8 is tied in one end and then the other end is woven through the 8 as shown in the attached picture.

No mechanical advantage, but very simple and would work for soft items and bundles.

SS

roo

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Re: 8 based binder
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2014, 12:34:13 AM »
I can't get this to hold tension, but it does look like the adjustable mode of the HFP Slippery Eight Loop.

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html

I do use the Slippery 8 quite often.
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xarax

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Re: 8 based binder
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2014, 01:10:32 AM »
   To improve it, just duplicate it  :) - so you will get two fig.8 knots, tied on both ends, and those ends going through the two openings of the fig.8 knots the way you show.
   We can use many tight stoppers, of a more simple or a more complex topology than the fig.8. (1).
   I had once tied such binders based on double overhand knots, or even more convoluted stoppers (2). However, we should not suppose that a more convoluted stopper can nip the line harder, because, beyond a certain point, the nipping potential is absorbed from, and "wasted" into, the tangled segments of the nub , and does not reach the penetrating line.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg21229#msg21229
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17831#msg17831
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17841#msg17841
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17842#msg17842
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17843#msg17843

   
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: 8 based binder
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2014, 09:16:57 PM »
I can't get this to hold tension
+1 (in cheap, from shopping-bag cord).

I'm surprised that SS369 put this forward,
as I gotta believe that it just doesn't hold
well in anything (and yet he must've tried
something!) ?!?

Nor does orienting the unknotted end's passage
to match that of my "quick-8" eyeknot.

But, per Xarax's recommendation, changing this structure
to have eyeknot mechanics --at least in one side--
does seem to offer "2:1" MA binding mechanics.
Simply, put an eye in one end, and then with the
other, make the fig.8 and reeve its tail through
the other-end eye and back through the fig.8
as per the quick-8; haul tight by pulling this tail
Spart-wards (per fig.8 SPart, i.e.) while holding
the fig.8's body.  Releasing the tail will see the
quick-8 achieve form, holding the binding
(with, perhaps, some loss of tension, in setting).

But the above is much less flexible than the general
structure SS369 presents, in that one cannot haul
one end through another end's structure indefinitely,
but must anticipate the material needed in positioning
that structure, alas.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 08:28:48 PM by Dan_Lehman »

SS369

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Re: 8 based binder
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2014, 10:00:27 PM »
I can't get this to hold tension
+1 (in cheap, from shopping-bag cord).

I'm surprised that SS369 put this forward,
as I gotta believe that it just doesn't hold
well in anything (and yet he must've tried
something!) ?!?

Ah, yes, I did try this in a few different cords and ropes. (Of course I tried it in that red cord that the photo above showed.) But, no cheap shopping bag cord available. :)
Nylon all braid, poly sheathed accessory cord, Titan Dyneema core, venetian blind cord, poly throw line and a couple of kernmantle ropes. All worked.

Why be surprised? It works as well as some others presented here and on the internet.

The key to it working is to tighten the Fig. 8 well after the tail is rove through as shown in the photo. As the under-body of the knot is drawn against the to be bound mass, the tail is deformed more and increases the holding of it.

Even around soft material, towel and sleeping bag, it holds well enough to be considered for occasional use. I have not tried it with a bundle of sticks though.

SS

xarax

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Re: 8 based binder
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2014, 12:20:12 AM »
As the under-body of the knot is drawn against the to be bound mass ...

   We should separate the two different things : a knot as a ( mid-air ) binder, may behave differently than the "same" knot, as a hitch around a round object. As we have seen in the case of the simple hitch a la Gleipnir, the "recoil" of the surface of the object can make some nipping structures become tighter, and so grip the penetrating ends more effectively.
   When I want to see how a mid-air binder works, I use the simple trick shown at the attached picture : I wrap it around two parallel and adjacent poles, so the nub remains in "mid-air" ( but the lines can slide on the surface of the poles, so we can pre-tighten the binder more, and more easily ).
   Having said that, I should mention an objective difficulty of evaluating binders : the loads under which a mid-air binder slips are much lighter than the loads bend slips or breaks, so a small difference in the maximum load is often veeery small, almost impossible to notice, and very difficult to measure with precision. ( For example, I am still not sure if the Gleipnir binder based on the Clove nipping structure, which can jam, is really tighter than the one based on the Cow nipping structure, which does not ...) 
   
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SS369

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Re: 8 based binder
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2014, 12:59:51 AM »
Yes, "we should separate the two different things" and I guess I was remiss in not calling it something particular other than a binder. It is not a mid air binder.

Interesting way you test your mid air binders. I will usually test one around my knees.  ;)

Honestly, I would not say that this binder is "best of breed", but it is there for work if someone wants to try it.
And it could lead to a better, modified version.

SS

xarax

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Re: 8 based binder
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2014, 01:30:19 AM »
   You can NOT pre-tension a really tight binder enough, if you tie it around your knees !  :) ( Although I admit I had tried it once or twice - but around OPK ( other people s knees ...), in order to illustrate the efficiency of the classic one-turn Gleipnir).
   Now, when you bind more than one objects, you can not be sure, in advance, if, after the tensioning, the nub(s) will be on a hard surface, or in mid air... That is why I use the term "tight hitches", for those on-surface binders, and "binders", for the mid-air binders. Personally, I am not interested at all in the simple "snug hitches", of which we have already too many, and which are very "easy" knots to devise : perhaps easier than the bends, although we have many more end-to-end knots / bends, than snug hitches. However, the field of adjustable loops, be them self-locking or not, may still hide some surprises - and the field of the "one line / two nubs" binders, as the ones shown in (1), is still almost totally unexplored ! Which are the more effective nipping structures which can serve as nubs for those binders ? Those structures are tensioned from both ends, but the tension coming from the one end is half from the tension coming, through their single wrap, from the other ( somewhat like the nipping structures of the bowline-like eye-knots / loops ). Also, the penetrating lines should better not follow a convoluted path inside the nubs, otherwise we would not be able to tension them - or to adjust their tension, by pulling the two Tail Ends, even after they had been "locked".

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg21229#msg21229
   
   
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Luca

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Re: 8 based binder
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2014, 11:30:18 PM »
Hi SS,

For soft objects,time ago I have tried the same structure that you propose,but used as a "zip tie behaviour" binder:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3937.msg23663#msg23663

So far this type of binder is liked only me and SaltyCracker!(see the following posts to the one of the link)But currently i prefer the use of the Locked Cow hitch:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4763.msg31358#msg31358

                                                                                                                                     Bye!

SS369

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Re: 8 based binder
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2014, 11:52:10 PM »
Hi Luca, thanks for the input and reminder.

The memory cells are better activated now. ;)

SS

DerekSmith

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Re: 8 based binder
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2014, 04:46:57 PM »
   To improve it, just ...

This knot hardly needs improvement, it is almost one of the best self holding knots that has been around for a very long time.

Just take that last tuck through the 8 back out, and you have the Packing knot...

Haul the WE back towards itself and the 8 closes on its own end and onto the WE, gripping them both nicely without need of a helping hand to hold the knot tight while you finish it with a HH over the stub of the 8's end.

xarax

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Re: 8 based binder
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2014, 08:45:15 PM »
   To improve it, just ...
This knot hardly needs improvement, it is almost one of the best self holding knots that has been around for a very long time.

   It was only a polite way, to say that, as it is shown in the picture ( meaning, without any improvement ), it is probably THE worst  :) supposedly "self holding knot" I know ( the nub of a fig.8 knot grips the penetrating line less tightly even from the nub of a simple overhand knot, because some of its gripping power is "wasted" within its two-collars "8" shape ...) - and the fact that it "has been around for a very long time", is only another indication of the low quality of the knotting "traditions", and myths... Of course, if one uses a fig.8 knot only as a mere base, re-tucks its tail a number of times, and then drives the penetrating line through another, more convoluted path inside its nub, he may find something better...
   However, I believe I have tried all the possible improvements, but I have not been able to discover something more satisfactory ( = gripping the penetrating line more tightly ) than the "self holding knots" based on re-tucked overhand knots ( so, based on the double overhand knot, and not on the re-tucked fig.8- or the re-tucked fig.9-based knots ), as shown in (1). The problem of how to grip a penetrating line, without forcing it to follow a too-convoluted path ( because, in this case, the knot may become self-locking, but it will not remain easily adjustable ), is very interesting, and still open. I believe that the most important property of any satisfactory solution is the angle the penetrating line is forced to follow as it enters inside the nub of the "self holding" knot : an angle close to the right angle is probably the optimum.
   I use to call such an L-shaped, almost right angle deflexion of the penetrating line a "handle", and I try to built on the very effective way the "holding knot" retains its grip on it, even in the case of adjustable loops. ( For the most tight adjustable loop I know, based on a Pretzel-shaped "holding knot", see (2)). The way the penetrating line enters in the nub of such a knot, from its "side", reminds me the way the returning eye leg enters into the nipping loop of the "Eskimo" bowlines, so I also call such adjustable loops "Eskimo"-like loops.   

   1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17841#msg17841
       http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17842#msg17842
       http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17843#msg17843
   2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4464.msg28357#msg28357
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 08:47:26 PM by xarax »
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