Author Topic: Name of knot for attaching kites.  (Read 2624 times)

gaffer

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Name of knot for attaching kites.
« on: April 26, 2014, 04:04:43 PM »
i fly big kites.  Single like kites where "will it move my truck?" is a valid concern.

For this, not only is it a concern that the knot will stay fast but also that it can be undone again(!)

i have attached a picture of the knot.  The dark line at the top is the loop on the kite.  The grey one is the kite line leading to the ground below.

Clearly, you want to pull the loose end to release the knot but if the knot has been pulled very tight, this is not possible by hand.  However the end of the dark loop will be folded up, towards the camera.  You can push this down by hand, which gives sufficient looseness that you can pull the grey loop out.

Now, my question is:  Is there a name for this knot?

Thanks

Andrew

Edit: typo fixed
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 04:06:38 PM by gaffer »

TheTreeSpyder

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 152
Re: Name of knot for attaching kites.
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2014, 04:44:33 PM »
i'd say slipped becket if to eye, slipped sheetbend if to bight

More properly, Doubled or RoundTurn slipped Becket/Sheetbend, because of added Turn of lower line; before tuck of final bight as slip .
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 04:46:09 PM by TheTreeSpyder »

gaffer

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Name of knot for attaching kites.
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2014, 05:19:16 PM »
Thankyou.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Name of knot for attaching kites.
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2014, 06:58:05 PM »
   See also ( the pictures at ) :

   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4307 
   
   For a whole new class of asymmetric bends, see ( the pictures at ) :

   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4116

   P.S. I can not see the details of the knot in the picture, but I can say that the continuation of the Standing End, should better go over itself, before it makes the crossed U turn / collar, not under ( so, under itself, after the crossed U turn / volar, not over).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 07:33:04 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

gaffer

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Name of knot for attaching kites.
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2014, 07:39:16 PM »
   P.S. I can not see the details of the knot

I guess i should get some cotton rope in contrasting colours

But i have re-tied it in different rope to try to make it clearer.

I hesitate to change a knot that i have grown to trust.  i am tying in Spectra and need it not to slip  (there is a school of thought that says that you put the end of the white line through the "slip" loop, so that it can't possible slip under load). Note that even if I subject the line to so much load that it fails elsewhere, I still want to get the knot undone.

Andrew

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Name of knot for attaching kites.
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2014, 09:34:44 PM »
I hesitate to change a knot that i have grown to trust.

   Let me be clear, Andrew : I have NOT tied this knot on Spectra : what I suggest is based only on my experience and knowledge, however limited, of "ordinary" materials.
   However, I do not believe in the theory that, "if something works, leave it as it is", especially when it concerns products of technology - and the simplest but more basic products of technology, are the tools.
   I have changed the knots I use many times in my life, well after I have "grown"  :) - and I still change them, if I find one knot that I think it is at least not worse, and it might be even better, than the one I am used to tie. And we should never forget that progress in technology is always a result of trial and error, too, so not only of scientific development. 
   Now, the idea why the direct continuation of the Standing end should better go "over" itself, is proved each and every time we tie a snug hitch - the continuation of the Standing End before a U turn / collar around the hitched object works like a riding turn, which squeezes the Tail End in between the still maximally tensioned ( by the 100% of the load ) part of the hitching line, and the surface of the hitched object - in that case, the surfaces of the pair of the hitched legs of the bight. You may argue that this has happened already, as the continuation of the Standing End goes "over" the slipped Tail End - but I think it would be safer if it also goes "over" itself, in the way I have described. Anyway, there is a method we can settle this - start tying the modified knot with a very small kite, then try it with a less small one, etc... By the time you will fly the BIG kite, you will know -  the danger of losing a kite when you fly a smaller one is not smaller than when you fly a bigger one, but what is endangered, is  :).   
   
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 09:36:27 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

gaffer

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Name of knot for attaching kites.
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2014, 08:57:21 AM »
Thanks for your posting, xarax.

I'm a bit of a novice to discussing knots, so I'm having to look up most of the terms you use - and getting from there to comprehension is another part of the journey.

So I think that you are intending to tie the knot as per the attachment.  if this is correct, then I concur with your thinking.
The standing part should bind on the first (uppermost) turn, reducing the chance of slippage.  I still have the "bend the bight back" technique for loosening the grip on the slip when I need to untie.

If i have misunderstood, please correct me.

Thanks

Andrew

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Name of knot for attaching kites.
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2014, 11:24:55 AM »
   The fact that our language is incomprehensible, is OUR problem, that we have to solve, not a problem of a newcomer ! 
   However, every occupation is forced to use a number of "technical" words and expressions, in order to make the communication between its members shorter and unambiguous. The bad thing is that, in knotting, we have not even agreed in a minimum set of such words and expressions ! ( So, imagine what happens when we discuss knots... :) )
   You have understood very well , of course - only you have added another round turn / whole turn around the legs of the hitched bight, which might be redundant. I just do not know if it is indeed, when the knot is tied on Spectra - try it with one turn ( like you did in your previous picture ) and with two turns ( like you do now ), and tell us. If I had understood anything about this material, I would say that the winding is not so important, because the segments of the rope can slide easily, when they run parallel to each other, as those two turns do. What would offer a more efficient obstacle against slippage is the sharp turns / collars, where the flow of the line changes its orientation, and the points where segments of the knot s nub meet other segment at an angle close to the right angle, so it gets more difficult to them to slide on the surface of each other. However, all this may be just hand-weaving arguments, and the proof of the pudding will be on the eating : Trial and Error !  :)   
   Also, there are many ways to skin a particular cat ! There are many ways to solve this, or any other knotting problem : Some of them may be better than some others, regarding some properties, and worse, regarding some others, but it might also be the case ( as it happens too often, alas ! ) to have more than one knot of with similar qualities and equivalent efficiency, and to not know which to choose and use ! Then, aesthetics jumps in, and you just use whichever knot you LIKE !  :)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 11:28:11 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

kjschaefer

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Name of knot for attaching kites.
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2014, 03:33:44 PM »
Hi Xarax, if I understand your suggestion right (and if I did it right), the variation leads to a situation, where pulling on the ripcord leads the knot to dissolve into a simple (non-slipped) sheetbend (becket hitch). This certainly improves security, but might not be intended, if quick untying is an issue. Time and again I'm surprised of the effects of slight variations. By the way, thanks to you and the other senior members and the lively discussions - I'm an avid and grateful reader of this forum (mostly on practical knots). Regards, Knud

alpineer

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 491
Re: Name of knot for attaching kites.
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2014, 05:54:29 PM »
Hi gaffer. Your knot can be described as the slipped version of a "tressed" Becket/Sheet Bend, which is the analog form of my Tresse Bowline. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4321.0;attach=9888;image
What xarax has suggested is of course known as the Double Becket/Sheet Bend.
The slipped Double B/S Bend will not release completely (explode) when the tail is fully pulled - as noted by kjschaefer - whereas the tressed B/S Bend will release completely.

alpineer   
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 07:30:46 PM by alpineer »