Author Topic: Why I don't use the forum regularly  (Read 6026 times)

woodknot

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Why I don't use the forum regularly
« on: April 15, 2014, 12:24:37 PM »
My main interest is knots, their synonyms and homonyms and incorrect name usage. To this end I have over he last few years been compiling a relational database (MS Access) union catalogue of knots, created by going through my knot books listing individual knots and the figure and page used in each book for each knot. This is nearly complete. My frustration with the forum has been reminded to me when I revisited, having included the major step of incorporating ABOK into the database, to see if the forum entries would fit in.
What has thrown me is the use by regular forum contributors of knot names which have not appeared in any of my published sources. Three examples encountered in my most recent visit are "Gnat" (?hitch), "Andalusian" (?hitch), and "Gleipnir" (?). There were probably other different ones in the earlier visits made shortly after I first registered with the forum and from time-to-time since then.
I know my library while comprehensive is not exhaustive, and I have a complete run of Knotting Matters, thanks to the CD, but have been unable to locate these terms.
Is there anyway that the forum can be scanned to find obscure names when encountered? I tried putting "Andalusian" into the search box and got nothing, not even the entry which had raised the problem.
I don't mind being ignorant, but the use of terms not available (apparently) outside the forum gives a feeling of exclusion

Wed

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Re: Why I don't use the forum regularly
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2014, 02:16:30 PM »
Do you have any plans on releasing your database in a format accessible to general users?

SS369

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Re: Why I don't use the forum regularly
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2014, 02:59:34 PM »
My main interest is knots, their synonyms and homonyms and incorrect name usage. To this end I have over he last few years been compiling a relational database (MS Access) union catalogue of knots, created by going through my knot books listing individual knots and the figure and page used in each book for each knot. This is nearly complete. My frustration with the forum has been reminded to me when I revisited, having included the major step of incorporating ABOK into the database, to see if the forum entries would fit in.
What has thrown me is the use by regular forum contributors of knot names which have not appeared in any of my published sources. Three examples encountered in my most recent visit are "Gnat" (?hitch), "Andalusian" (?hitch), and "Gleipnir" (?). There were probably other different ones in the earlier visits made shortly after I first registered with the forum and from time-to-time since then.
I know my library while comprehensive is not exhaustive, and I have a complete run of Knotting Matters, thanks to the CD, but have been unable to locate these terms.
Is there anyway that the forum can be scanned to find obscure names when encountered? I tried putting "Andalusian" into the search box and got nothing, not even the entry which had raised the problem.
I don't mind being ignorant, but the use of terms not available (apparently) outside the forum gives a feeling of exclusion

Good day woodknot.

If you will try again using the search function on the main page http://igkt.net/sm/index.php your results will differ possibly. Here are the results I got for Andalusian. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=search2 The other names work as well.

I suspect that you won't find these searched for terms/names in KM because they probably have not been submitted by the originators.(?) These three knots that you site are new and were presented to our community for scrutiny, etc.,  and most likely not wide spread around the Internet and so the exclusivity exists. Makes sense?
And the browser (Google, etc.) searches bring the searchers here as well.
Not perfect, but it does work.

If there comes a situation where you need some help, please feel free to contact me, or pose the request in an appropriate thread. I am sure some helpful member will do their best to give aid.

I too am interested in your database and if you will be sharing it with interested people?

SS

roo

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Re: Why I don't use the forum regularly
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2014, 03:00:33 PM »
My main interest is knots, their synonyms and homonyms and incorrect name usage. To this end I have over he last few years been compiling a relational database (MS Access) union catalogue of knots, created by going through my knot books listing individual knots and the figure and page used in each book for each knot. This is nearly complete. My frustration with the forum has been reminded to me when I revisited, having included the major step of incorporating ABOK into the database, to see if the forum entries would fit in.
What has thrown me is the use by regular forum contributors of knot names which have not appeared in any of my published sources. Three examples encountered in my most recent visit are "Gnat" (?hitch), "Andalusian" (?hitch), and "Gleipnir" (?). There were probably other different ones in the earlier visits made shortly after I first registered with the forum and from time-to-time since then.
I know my library while comprehensive is not exhaustive, and I have a complete run of Knotting Matters, thanks to the CD, but have been unable to locate these terms.
Is there anyway that the forum can be scanned to find obscure names when encountered? I tried putting "Andalusian" into the search box and got nothing, not even the entry which had raised the problem.
I don't mind being ignorant, but the use of terms not available (apparently) outside the forum gives a feeling of exclusion

Hold on a second.  Have you ever considered that some knot names aren't in wide use in books or magazines because they are fairly new?

If you check the date stamp on the Gnat Hitch for example, you'll see that it's barely two years old:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html

And it should turn up in web queries.
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


xarax

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Re: Why I don't use the forum regularly
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2014, 03:33:30 PM »
   Since Stone Age, humans are tying knots long ( sometimes dozens of thousands of years ! ) before they bother to name or represent them. Perhaps this could had changed, if there was an automatic knot-tying machine ( something like a more complex sewing machine ), which would had tied all the possible simple knots discovered by mathematicians... I suppose that the bone-made awl and sewing-needle users 60.000 years ago were tying half-hitches and overhand knots all the time. So, if we are not believers in some extreme variation of medieval nominalism, where there are no real things, but only names ( Lat. "nomen", Gr. "ονομα" ), we should expect that there would be knots discovered but not named yet - or, if they have been named, their names would not appear in ABoK  :) or any other "published source".     
   Moreover, I believe that what most users of the internet think as "published sources", means, sadly, only "published sources in English"... I have not seen anybody to compile a "relational database" of the knots tied and named by other sea-faring people, that had used them in sailing ships even before English-speaking people : Greek, Chinese, Viking, Portuguese, Spanish, French, Dutch... We have written references and descriptions of many knots in other languages, which do not appear in fast-knot ( like "fast-food" ) web sites and coffee table books, offering cheap knot recipes - nowadays served with colourful / spectacular pictures and animations, to attract more customers.
   Practical knots are tools, so the study of their origins and development belongs to the History of Technology. Now, technology is different from science in many ways, one of which is that it evolves very rapidly, and the many new inventions are comparable, and measurably better than the old ones. The result is that there is less public interest in the history of technology than in the history of science, and there are fewer scholars involved in it, fewer books, fewer articles, etc. So, I do not expect any extensive scientific work in the history of practical knots coming soon  :) ... Also, most people are interested in tools as means to their ends, to "do the job" - the fact that there are other people, of other occupations or nationalities, that do the same job using other tools, named otherwise, seems only secondary to them. There are Japanese, Russian and American fishermen fishing the same fishes in the same seas - yet they use different knots for attaching their hooks on the fishing lines, for example, and, of course, even when they use the same knots, they call them differently.
   In particular, the Gleipnir was the greatest invention in practical knotting since the Zeppelin bend, I believe - although it could had been invented before the bowline ! ( it works based on the same mechanism, but it is more simple / primitive than the bowline, in that it does not uses the collar ). It was a matter of luck, and a privilege, for the participants in this Forum to learn this knot before the general public : this should not mean that people that do not participate in it should sense a "feeling of exclusion" ! An old or new knot belongs to everybody - after all, we like to imagine that it would had already been discovered by the intelligent inhabitants of many distant galaxies, because we do not believe that those long cylindrical flexible things we call "ropes" exist only on Earth !  :) Perhaps we should pay more attention to the correct information about knots in the web, indeed - most Wikipedia articles about knots, for example, are really lamentable, full of inaccuracies, mistakes, ignorance, myths, and even lies !       
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 03:35:02 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

woodknot

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Re: Why I don't use the forum regularly
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2014, 11:38:45 AM »
Thanks for your various comments. I have now tried Googling "Andalusian" and "Gleipnir", and have still not come up with a good "Original Source" for these terms. My background is in biology where the first description is all important, and the ability to find this for newly developed terms is I would contend, just as useful in knotting. My thanks to roo whose reference to the Gnat Hitch served my requirements - I can now see what is meant when someone compares another knot to it or comments on varying it, and similar for Andalusian or Gleipnir might help.

In relation to my original gripe, maybe another heading for such neologisms(?) might help. As a thread, for newcomers like me to the forum it might be too concealed!

On a separate raised point. YES, I do plan to make the database available, but only when I have added extra documentation which explains some of the concepts behind it, and how it is arranged.


xarax

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Re: Why I don't use the forum regularly
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2014, 10:10:23 PM »
   The name "Gleipnir" was the avatar name chosen by the author of the knot and of the first thread/post in this Forum where it has been described (1)- after some more posts, when it became evident that this was an altogether different knot ( than the Constrictor, which might have been what inspired the author in the first place), it was suggested that the knot should had better be named Gleipnir, too (2).
   Why don t you speak directly to the discoverer of the knot ? He is not Noah ! And there are many fine knot species that you will not find in the supposed Ark of knots, the ABoK !  :)

 1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1449.0
 2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1449.msg10098#msg10098
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 10:15:39 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Why I don't use the forum regularly
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2014, 12:11:10 AM »
Thanks for your various comments. I have now tried Googling "Andalusian" and "Gleipnir", and have still not come up with a good "Original Source" for these terms. My background is in biology where the first description is all important, and the ability to find this for newly developed terms is I would contend, just as useful in knotting.
...

!!  Goodness, do you have "original source" information
for ANY knot?!  --THAT would make for some good debate!
(Although one can distinguish between the origin of some
name vs. of the named object (knot).)

The "Gleipnir" is one where origin is rather easily
found : ICI (here) !!  --on the IGKT forum.  (Whereas
the "constrictor" might see Ashley as originating the
name, but the knot having deeper/older roots, though
in curiously incomplete presentations, in sort of hints.)

Beyond this, I'd think you would be neck deep (if not
over your head) in the frustrating fact that many knots
are called by several names, and many knot-names
denote more than one knot (e.g., I just answered
a post about "granny")!!

Quote
Moreover, I believe that what most users of the internet think as "published sources", means, sadly, only "published sources in English"... I have not seen anybody to compile a "relational database" of the knots tied and named by other sea-faring people, that had used them in sailing ships even before English-speaking people : Greek, Chinese, Viking, Portuguese, Spanish, French, Dutch...
+10!!
And even "published in a *knots* book" (in contrast
to some application-specific literature; often, though,
not in literature --but in the hands of knot tyers!).
And not at all restricted to mariners : others, too, knot.


Cheers,
--dl*
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Bob Thrun

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Re: Why I don't use the forum regularly
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2014, 03:32:49 AM »
What do you do when the books do not agree?  I have found six other names for the Girth Hitch and six hitches that answer to the name of French Prusik.  Most popular knots have more than one name.

Willeke

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Re: Why I don't use the forum regularly
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2014, 09:44:13 PM »
I live on a coast, non-English speaking country, and in my area in each harbour the fishermen have local names for the knots they use.
And not just fishermen who use knots and name them.
Landfolks have/had at least as many and some of those still survive.

Not all knots have different names per locatio, just enough to make it impossible to give 'the' name of a knot.
Books are not much help, as those are almost all translated by people who do not know much about knots.

I can not be completely sure, but I think that this 'local names' thing might work world wide, so even if you are able to get all recorded names for the knots, you will never get all the names.
And if there are 'new' knots hidden, as fishermen are known for not sharing all knot knowledge, you might never find a source for some.

If you let something like 'unknown names' stop you from using a forum, I wonder whether any forum is friendly enough for you.
I don't mind being ignorant, but the use of terms not available (apparently) outside the forum gives a feeling of exclusion

"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.