Author Topic: Andalusian based binder  (Read 2759 times)

SS369

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Andalusian based binder
« on: March 12, 2014, 11:29:55 PM »
In the vein of exploring new binders, here is a encircling binder based on the Andalusian hitch.

Form the hitch mid-line or suitable location, thread the ends through the hitch's loops, dress the hitch tight around the working parts and pull the tails.

One of the ways I test the grip on these types of binders is to push the tails reverse from tightening, or attempt to, as to loosen the knot.

This binder holds on quite well.

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xarax

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Re: Andalusian based binder
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2014, 12:14:47 AM »
  The purpose of the Andalusian hitch s mechanism (1) was to "lock" the pair of ends ( Standing and Tail ) together. In the hitch / binder you present, this function is not required - so think that this knot can be simplified further.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4069.0
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Andalusian based binder
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2014, 01:21:38 AM »
Thank you xarax, I am familiar with the thread and the stated use of the hitch. I've even used the hitch in its proper role as  rappelling anchor.

I just decided to try that particular hitch because of the way it works (I happen to like it), not so different (exactly the same) than the cat's paw, but with additional "ratcheting tightness" of the additional parts upon the two bights the tails go through.

Yes, there are simpler arrangements already shown in other threads, but tie this one and compare how well the tails are held.
I am not claiming this is better or worse than any other. Let others judge this. I am just exploring and sharing the voyage.
Who knows, it may just generate something.  ;)

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xarax

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Re: Andalusian based binder
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2014, 02:37:50 AM »
I am familiar with the thread and the stated use of the hitch. I've even used the hitch in its proper role as  rappelling anchor.

  I know and I remember this, perhaps better than you !  :) I have just included the reference, so that the readers that have not followed the Forum very closely, can go to the original thread. I always do this, even if it seems redundant or consuming bits and bytes for no reason. There is a reason - one can easily jump from one thread and post to another, if he has easily available references - as you know, the "Search" function of this Forum is not the best in the World !

... with additional "ratcheting tightness" of the additional parts upon the two bights the tails go through.

  That was my point. Is this function required, when the continuations of two "locked" ends, the Standing and the Tail end of the original hitch, are the wraps themselves ? The wraps should be locked at the very end of their journey around the pole, after they had already made their rounding turns = they should be locked inside the nub. What is the point of having them locked at the start of their turns ? It seems a feature of this very good hitch that is not utilized in this case, so I thought it may be redundant.
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Andalusian based binder
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2014, 03:08:04 AM »
I am familiar with the thread and the stated use of the hitch. I've even used the hitch in its proper role as  rappelling anchor.

  I know and I remember this, perhaps better than you !  :) I have just included the reference, so that the readers that have not followed the Forum very closely, can go to the original thread. I always do this, even if it seems redundant or consuming bits and bytes for no reason. There is a reason - one can easily jump from one thread and post to another, if he has easily available references - as you know, the "Search" function of this Forum is not the best in the World !

... with additional "ratcheting tightness" of the additional parts upon the two bights the tails go through.

  That was my point. Is this function required, when the continuations of two "locked" ends, the Standing and the Tail end of the original hitch, are the wraps themselves ? The wraps should be locked at the very end of their journey around the pole, after they had already made their rounding turns = they should be locked inside the nub. What is the point of having them locked at the start of their turns ? It seems a feature of this very good hitch that is not utilized in this case, so I thought it may be redundant.

You very well may remember it better.  :o I answered in the first person. ;)
It is good that you referenced it to that thread and I thank you from all the readers. (I was actually able to find it using search.)

The cap's paw version does the job adequately enough, especially with the overhand lock. The Andalusian based binder doesn't need the lock, so, they are sort of equal, in a sense.
I believe that the additional complexity of this set up offers a bit of leverage against the tail encircling bights, forcing them to nip harder against the tails.
The trade off for better tail gripping strength is that it can be harder to pull the tails to tighten the binding action, somewhat.

Doing a side by side comparison will show whether this is necessary or desired. Various rope material and construction show me that some of these types of binders are better with one than the other.
Try it with stiffer rope as well.

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xarax

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Re: Andalusian based binder
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2014, 03:39:57 AM »
(I was actually able to find it using search.)

   As I have complained many times, "Search" is not working properly in this Forum, so I have to use "Google" many times ! : It shows the posts with a peculiar order, and it shows any posts which include the word we search IT wants !  :)  It does nt show the very first post, and, many times, it doesn't even show the thread in the title of which this word is included... So, you were just lucky with the Andalusian hitch - if you search now, you will find the Andalusian hitch original thread only after 5 other posts - moreover, from this thread, you will find only the second of the end post ... :)

 
...especially with the overhand lock.

  Which overhand lock ? What do you mean ?

 
The trade off for better tail gripping strength is that it can be harder to pull the tails to tighten the binding action, somewhat.

   Indeed, this is the main problem with all those knots...I find very difficult to decide how much I want to secure the Ends, so they will not become too entangled, and so difficult to pull and re-adjusted. AND, this would be decided for a great variety of materials ! Difficult !

Various rope material and construction show me that some of these types of binders are better with one than the other.

  I consider this a disadvantage of those knots... If they are too material-depended, they are not relying in their geometry, but in the particular characteristics of the rope - so their success is circumstantial. We want knots that work adequately well when tied on all ordinary materials, even if they would behave better when they tied on some than when tied on some others - but a knot that works only on very soft or only on very stiff ropes, is a failure, IMHO.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 03:41:37 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Andalusian based binder
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2014, 03:53:19 AM »
(I was actually able to find it using search.)

   As I have complained many times, "Search" is not working properly in this Forum, so I have to use "Google" many times ! : It shows the posts with a peculiar order, and it shows any posts which include the word we search IT wants !  :)  It does nt show the very first post, and, many times, it doesn't even show the thread in the title of which this word is included... So, you were just lucky with the Andalusian hitch - if you search now, you will find the Andalusian hitch original thread only after 5 other posts - moreover, from this thread, you will find only the second of the end post ... :)

 
...especially with the overhand lock.

  Which overhand lock ? What do you mean ?

 
The trade off for better tail gripping strength is that it can be harder to pull the tails to tighten the binding action, somewhat.

   Indeed, this is the main problem with all those knots...I find very difficult to decide how much I want to secure the Ends, so they will not become too entangled, and so difficult to pull and re-adjusted. AND, this would be decided for a great variety of materials ! Difficult !

Various rope material and construction show me that some of these types of binders are better with one than the other.

  I consider this a disadvantage of those knots... If they are too material-depended, they are not relying in their geometry, but in the particular characteristics of the rope - so their success is circumstantial. We want knots that work adequately well when tied on all ordinary materials, even if they would behave better when they tied on some than when tied on some others - but a knot that works only on very soft or only on very stiff ropes, is a failure, IMHO.

I am sorry you are having such a poor time with the search function. My experience is not the same. But this subject's discussion is for another place.

The overhand lock http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4821.0 picture #4 of the original post. That is what I was referring to.

The whole idea of a binder is to bind and maintain the constricting force, by friction or a lock of some sort, so if we simplify and lose integrity, then it is no good.

Unfortunately with the plethora of ropes of many flavors out there, we need to be mindful of those characteristics and their influence on a chosen or designed knot. (Dyneema for example.)

We'll keep exploring anyway...

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xarax

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Re: Andalusian based binder
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2014, 04:07:34 AM »
The overhand lock http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4821.0 picture #4 of the original post. That is what I was referring to.

  Oh, I did nt even noticed that thing ! Thanks. However, if a binder needs an additional lock, we need an additional binder !  :)

  I do not have much experience with ropes, outside some climbing ones. My guess is that we can place them in three broad categories, the traditional Manila ropes, the "ordinary" ropes, made from "ordinary" synthetic fibres ( like Nylon or Poly- ), and the extra-ordinary very strong and very slippery ropes ( like Dyneema, etc.). So, I think that if a knot works on ALL ordinary materials, it is acceptable, otherwise it is not.   
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Andalusian based binder
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2014, 01:46:51 PM »
The overhand lock http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4821.0 picture #4 of the original post. That is what I was referring to.

  Oh, I did nt even noticed that thing ! Thanks. However, if a binder needs an additional lock, we need an additional binder !  :)
Quote
Right - And so a little more complicated knot, possibly.

 
Quote
I do not have much experience with ropes, outside some climbing ones. My guess is that we can place them in three broad categories, the traditional Manila ropes, the "ordinary" ropes, made from "ordinary" synthetic fibres ( like Nylon or Poly- ), and the extra-ordinary very strong and very slippery ropes ( like Dyneema, etc.). So, I think that if a knot works on ALL ordinary materials, it is acceptable, otherwise it is not.   
Right - Specialty knots.  ;)