Author Topic: A binder variation base on ABOK 457  (Read 13558 times)

Luca

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
Re: A binder variation base on ABOK 457
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2014, 10:47:18 PM »
Hi SS,

Hi Luca.

I have tried the prusik, the bull , the clove and and the girth hitch bases. My take is that the prusik is not as suited to this configuration as the tube shape and the multiple coils don't actually cinch down on the tails as well as the other three.

Using the 6mm accessory cord shown in my picture above, the clove based binder does not dress and set well without furious jerks

                                                                                                                 

and rearranging of the coils. Too much work for very little gain and not great holding power, imo.

The girth hitch works a lot better, with this same cord and easily dressed and set.
The bull hitch base does as well as the girth with a bit more dressing.

I feel that these will not be good binders for any soft items to be bound. Or for large ropes around small diameters.

It is all an interesting exploration though.

Thank you,It seems to me that my impressions regarding the difficulties of dressing and setting some of these binders are fundamentally similar to yours,so I do not have much to add.
My favorite remains the Girth hitch because it is the easier solution;personally I would not say that the use of the Prusik lead to a weaker result in terms of holding the tension, more than anything else requires more work IMO. Same speech regarding(also the simple) Clove hitch. To tell you the truth do not seems to me that the use of the Bull hitch leads to a superior result[maybe a little bit inferior? (but I have less ropes than you, and above all I have less experience as investigator of the behaviour of knots!(also, as you guessed, I'm a fan of the Girth hitch here, so this might affect the results of my poor experiments...))]

                                                                                                                        Thank you again!And bye!





xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: A binder variation base on ABOK 457
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2014, 04:39:15 AM »
   It is quite difficult, maybe especially as regards the two binders based on the Clove hitch, to make sure that the hitch component remains well compact: the problem is that, by pulling the free ends to tighten the binder around the object, the two "round-turned" components of the Clove hitch tend to stay loose, with consequent loss of time (and possibly also of patience ...) in searching the way to tighten ...

   You tie them the wrong way !  :) Pass the OTHER ends through the Clove hitch s nub - or pass the same ends, through the opposite openings of the "nipping tube" of the Clove hitch. It matters, believe me.
   See the two (simple) Gleipnir Clove binders at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4884.msg31968#msg31968
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4885.msg31991#msg31991
   Tie your binders as shown there - not the other way !
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 04:51:10 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: A binder variation base on ABOK 457
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2014, 05:08:31 AM »
...leaving the "bridge" that unites them slack...

...the two round-turned components can be moved away from one another... to create two distinct points where the tail ends are nipped.

  Either of those two dressings look to me more like two separate knots, the one next to the other, or like one compound knot, rather than one single knot. Perhaps they will work in tandem, but by "addition" - we want knots that work by "multiplication" - that is, knots where the whole is more than the mere sum of parts...
   
   For a four-wrap tight hitch, which also works by "addition", I would prefer the Double Cow hitch - which is veeery easily tied, utilizes a mechanical advantage, secures the Tail Ends by locking them in between opposing bights, and which is TIB :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.msg24345#msg24345
This is not a knot.

Luca

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
Re: A binder variation base on ABOK 457
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2014, 10:42:41 PM »
Hi xarax,

   You tie them the wrong way !  :) Pass the OTHER ends through the Clove hitch s nub - or pass the same ends, through the opposite openings of the "nipping tube" of the Clove hitch. It matters, believe me.
   See the two (simple) Gleipnir Clove binders at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4884.msg31968#msg31968
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4885.msg31991#msg31991
   Tie your binders as shown there - not the other way !



Is not clear to me what you mean here:as it seems to me,there are two ways, in general, to build (symmetrically), these binders based on the Clove hitch, those that should be visible in the diagrams at reply #5 linked at the top of this page.
That said, I thought that for each of the two ways of constructing the binder, there was only one way(or two, if one places the knot's nub upside down on the surface of the wrapped object)to use the pair of binding components (the loops) for wrapping the object;but it is clearly not true, as you teach me in the first of two link that you put up here, because the binder represented there is loaded in a way that I had not really thought about, and also the topology changes slightly (it is a matter of tail),then there is at least a third way ("tails" of the Clove component both "down"), and then,also a fourth(both tails "up")!
Apparently, the general construction of the binder is such as that of the third diagram of the reply #5(it's right?I am not 100% sure!) (but obviously loaded in a different way),while the binder to which it refers your second link seems to be built and "installed" as in the second diagram of the reply #5(but with the tails twisted).
In conclusion, I have tied these binders is in the right way and in the wrong way,and today I tried some of the binders of this thread as mid-air binders, including the one you have installed in your binder-test-laboratory(if I did it right, however I have also tried using the same "sructural" orientation of  the binder of your second link, but "installed" in the same way of the one in the first link),and the only one who fully convinced me (in addition to the binder of this thread of which I am an avid fan, ie the Girth(or Cow?)double wrap binder) is ...the Double Cow hitch version!
I do not know if you meant this when you  mentioned this hitch..but after trying for these binders the Clove,the Prusik,the Cat's paw ,the Bull,for me,in my(limited)experience,there is no comparison!(I tried it just as mid-air binder so far)

                                                                                                                       Bye!

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: A binder variation base on ABOK 457
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2014, 12:28:01 AM »
   First, those three binders are NOT "based on the Clove hitch" ! There is nowhere something like a Clove hitch : the two aligned, separate nipping tubes ( which are connected only by the "bridge", and through which we pass the two tails of the hitch after they have wrapped the object ) are two double nipping loops : each double nipping loop is made by segments of the line that make one 540 degrees UUU turn ( = three 180 degrees U turns ). On the contrary, the Gleipnir Clove binders I had shown are based on one genuine Cove hitch, tied around the penetrating pair of ends.
  Why a Clove hitch, and not just a double nipping loop ? I have seen that the Clove hitch behaves like a rope-made ratchet mechanism, "locking" any tensile forces which happen to be inserted within it during a pre-tensioning stage : so its gripping power on the penetrating tails is greater and more permanent, and will prohibit any slippage of the tails, even if/after they will become unloaded at some instance.
  We can replace the two aligned, separate double nipping loops in those hitches, with two aligned, separate Clove hitches, and see what happens.
   As you mention, we can place the nipping tubes as you show in the pictures, or upside down, so the "bridge" which connects the two nipping tubes is in contact to the surface of the object.
   Now, we can insert each of the two ends that we want to "lock" inside the nipping tubes, through the one or through the other opening. It is true that, if we insert them "the other way" of the way you show, the two wraps will cross each other, so the binder/hitch will not be 100% "symmetrical" - but that is only a minor deviation from the 100% symmetrical way you show, a deviation which does not have any consequence in the efficiency of the knot - especially in the case of a mid-air binder.
   I have seen that, curiously, the one, the "correct" way, can be quite easier to pre-tension than the other, and that is what I mentioned in Reply#32. ( See the two "ways", in the case of a "handcuff", one-line mid-air Gleipnir Clove binder, tied in between two objects, at the attached pictures. The same happens in the case of the two-line, mid-air or not, "common" binder / hitch, tied around one object. ) So, till now, we have four variations of the hitches you show.
  Moreover, if we make the line to turn 360 degrees or 720 degrees ( = two 180 degrees U turns, or four 180 degrees U turns ), the two limbs of the nipping tubes will leave them, and will turn around the object, following opposite directions, so we have a new quadruplicating of the number of possible binders/hitches - although the form of the ones with the shorter or longer nipping tubes are a little different from the ones you show, and one would argue that, in those 4 "new" cases, we have something like two connected, through a "bridge", single or double, inverted or not, "simple-hitches-a-la-Gleipnir" in a row, aligned on the surface of the pole...
   
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 01:15:08 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: A binder variation base on ABOK 457
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2014, 12:36:53 AM »
...the only one who fully convinced me (in addition to the binder of this thread of which I am an avid fan, ie the Girth (or Cow?) double wrap binder ) is ...the Double Cow hitch version !

   Welcome to the Land of the locked Cow hitches  :) : the single "Locked Cow hitch", and the "Double Cow hitch".
   They become tight, because they utilize the mechanical advantage of the Cow hitch - and they remain tight, because they utilize the opposing bights locking mechanism.   
This is not a knot.