Author Topic: Knot Development  (Read 8909 times)

GeneJohnson

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2014, 01:47:29 AM »
The second wrap actually makes the knot easier to tie.  I developed this knot primarily for mooring purposes.  The second wrap provides greater control while finishing the knot.  The second wrap also gives it a much tighter grip.  Even on a smooth pipe, the knot doesn't slide and holds tight.

Gene Johnson

xarax

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2014, 02:15:05 AM »
   Indeed, more wraps usually means better grip - but this is needed only in hitches that are meant to withstand a lengthwise pull, which is not the case here. Also, I do not understand why one more wrap makes it easier to tie - it make it longer to tie, and perhaps offers the feeling of a tighter hitch, which is not really neither required nor advised for mooring purposes. The boat and the surface of the water are rotated around the mooring post and with the tide, respectably, so I guess we need rather loose rather than tight hitches. 
This is not a knot.

GeneJohnson

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2014, 03:05:24 AM »
Knots are like tools my friend.  As various needs and applications arise, "selection" is good.  I would rather have an assortment of tools, or knots for that matter, at my disposal.  This knot works best for me for my particular need.    No doubt, its use is not limited to strictly boating applications.  Best regards!

Gene Johnson
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 03:19:12 AM by GeneJohnson »

xarax

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2014, 04:00:44 AM »
   True, every tool is useful. However, this is what is happening to me, and, I am sure, to many other arm-chair not tyers as well : I have too many tools, and too few things to fix with them ! My knot toolbox is already packed with knots, but the environment around me does not require them - we are not in the era of tall sailing ships any more... So, the only thing left to me is to be a collector of knots - and this reminds me of a friend I had, who was a camera collector, with all those extremely well crafted European cameras, the Leicas, the Hasseblads, the Roleiflexes... but he was not taking ANY picture, ever !  :)  He had arranged all those beautiful, expensive image-capturing machines all around his house, on taller or shorter tripods, covered with white pillow cases - you got the dreadful picture !
   If a new knot is not useful in a very broad category of cases, and if it is not comparable or better than the equally simple knots we already have, it will not make any waves in the knot tying community, I am afraid. Even new knots that are obviously better than old ones are seldom ignored, because knot tyers prefer a worse knot they know how to tie easily and quickly, than a new knot they have to learn - and at a not-so-young age nowadays, because the era of the boy scouts has gone as well.
   Various needs and various applications generate the need of many tools, but up to a point. We try to simplify the mechanisms we use, so we will need fewer tools - we have a large series of screw drivers, but not an infinite one - we manage to impose some standardisation to the possible shape of the nut heads ! Where there are many slightly different tools, I suspect a marketing and not a real need, like the different mounts of the lenses used by modern cameras. Also, the human brain is not evolved to learn and remember complex shapes in 3D space - it can learn and remember human faces, words, songs, but, unfortunately, NOT many knots ! Therefore, we are forced to be restricted in the number of knots / tools we have - we should explore them, of course, but we should also compare them to each other. This "assortment of tools" should be able to fit into our head, which is already filled with millions of other things. Another consequence of this is the "economy in material" in the knots we seek. It is not the cost of the rope we use by adding another turn, of course, but the added cost in the volume of the our limited mental knot toolbox which has to contain it. When we see something that can be subtracted without any significant deterioration of the function of the knot, we say it - and that was the meaning of my comment.
 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 04:03:03 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

GeneJohnson

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2014, 05:00:06 AM »
Thank you for your insight, but I hope that the rest of the knot tying community does not limit their knot selection with only those that they can remember off the top of their head.  There have been many times when I have done research to find the best or most practical knot for my application.  While I agree that there are knots that should be a "staple" in our mental knot collection, knotting is still very much about personal choice.  Let's leave the "one size fits all" way of thinking to the hat industry.  I am glad that the individual who somewhat recently developed the uni-knot for fishing applications was not discouraged.  Because he chose to think outside of the box, millions of anglers are better off today, including yours truly.  Taking the time to learn new things, or at least having an open mind can only serve the knot tying community in a positive way.  Creativity is still "key" for the advancement of any special interest group.  The mind is very much like an umbrella or parachute........It only works when it is open.  While I enjoy the art of roping and knot tying, spending further precious time on this post seems futile.  With that, Good Night.

Gene Johnson

xarax

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2014, 05:51:00 AM »
...the knot tying community does not limit their knot selection with only those that they can remember off the top of their head.

  When a knot is really good, you do not only remember it, you can not forget it, even if you wish !
  Personally, I do not limit my knot collection by the number of knots I can remember, but by the overall simplicity of them - if they are not adequately "simple", I do not include them in it. A not -"tight" hitch, which is not designed to withstand a lengthwise pull, but has many wraps, does not fit in my collection - but I do not doubt that it can fit into the collection of other people. 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 08:54:10 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

DerekSmith

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2014, 11:28:03 AM »
Hello Gene,

I am surprised that the encyclopaedic minds around here have not immediately identified your knot.  That in itself tends to suggest that you have indeed created a new knot.  Certainly it would be worth while sending an article to Knotting Matters to introduce it to a wider audience.

For my part, I really like the way you have utilised knotting 'components' to achieve a construction that satisfies your operational needs.

I believe that the Oh So Simple 'two round turns' is a massively underutilised component, it works perfectly in this application where you wanted to take a loaded line and quickly shed/stabilise most of that load into the mooring object.  By utilising the Two round turns, you have also ensured that the rope is not weakened by the mooring knot, round turns delivering load shedding at 100% rope strength.

The rest of the construction is clearly built around the Highwayman's interlaced bights principle, which although this is a very weak component as the load has already been disposed of, is of no issue, and allows a simple tie-off with an easy release.  Quite simply, it does everything you have designed it to do...

I do not doubt that you have used this mooring hitch extensively in real life applications.  From a technical standpoint, I can see one weakness that is not present in the Highwayman's, and wonder if you have had any practical experience of its existence?

In your hitch, the first bight crossing after the two turns, is held in place only by the SP remaining under tension.  If the SP becomes slack and 'something' brushes against this bight, it can flow over the relaxed SP and slacken the whole knot.  If this assembly is then extensively flogged, the two locking bights can then fall out, leaving you with only two round turns holding your vessel.  Of course, this is only a theoretical weakness and there may be several reasons that it would not occur in the real world.  In use, have you seen any indications of 'First bight creep'?

Oh, and I love your attitude -
Quote
Taking the time to learn new things, or at least having an open mind can only serve the knot tying community in a positive way.  Creativity is still "key" for the advancement of any special interest group.  The mind is very much like an umbrella or parachute........It only works when it is open.

Derek

DerekSmith

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 11:44:24 AM »
PS  As no one is coming up with an identification, have you started to think of a name for your knot?

And, as you are clearly happy to redesign knot structures, do you have any ideas on how to extinguish the one theoretical weakness that I described?

Derek

GeneJohnson

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2014, 03:33:37 PM »
Derek, thank you for your reply, and thoughts.  In many ways, your thought process for knot tying parallels mine.  The second wrap very much adds stability and control while finishing the knot, as well as spreading out the load.  I also find that in a quick release knot, the double bight "lock-up" allows for a smoother release when untying.  Also, the double bights can be accomplished while the first half of the knot (two wraps around object) remains undisturbed.  Personally, I find this knot easy to remember.  As for "bight creep", this is a valid concern pertaining to knot development in general.  I am glad that you brought this to the table for two reasons.  First of all, a knot is only as good as its greatest weakness.  Second, it gives us the opportunity to reintroduce a principle that can be applied to other quick release knots that utilize single or double bights.  Are you familiar with what is referred to as a "night hitch"?  It is a technique or measure that is often used by cattlemen who tie up livestock, mainly horses.  It is simply a single hitch that is placed around the bight of the finished knot for added security.  This helps prevent the knot from loosening and coming undone in two ways.  First, it locks the bight in place.  Second, it prevents someone else from releasing the knot by pulling on the working end.  Most quick release hitches were designed for "temporary" use.  The night hitch transforms these hitches into a more permanent or "trusted" knot.  As far as a name, "Johnson Hitch" comes to mind, if it is indeed an original design.  Best regards!

Gene Johnson

xarax

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2014, 04:22:14 PM »
   On "exploding" hitches, Ashley, on the somehow forgotten chapter on Ring hitches (ch. 24), has many interesting similar knots.
   In this Forum there have been a number of relevant threads. Among them :

  1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3719.msg21611#msg21611
  2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3953.msg23491#msg23491
  3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4463.0

  A very comprehensive article on "exploding" hitches :
 
  http://legacy.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/explode.htm#6
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 07:16:41 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

DerekSmith

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2014, 07:03:31 PM »
Hi Gene,

No, I am not familar with the Night Hitch.  Do you have any references or images to it?

Derek

GeneJohnson

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2014, 10:34:02 PM »
Derek, I have put together an example of what a "Night Hitch" is.  I have also heard it referred to as a "Bight Lock".   It is being applied to a simple quick release hitch.  Hope this helps. 

Gene Johnson

DerekSmith

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2014, 11:43:16 PM »
Thanks Gene,

A half hitch thrown over the slipped bight, nice.

So for the Johnson hitch



We would bring that WE over the top, down the front over that unprotected bight loop, and throw a HH over the final slipped bight loop, locking off the slip and locking in that at risk loop, preventing any risk of 'creep'.

Nice, simple and elegant solution.  I like it.

Derek

xarax

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2014, 12:33:28 AM »
   I do not see anything new in those hitches, than the well-known "trigger" / quick release mechanism present in many similar knots I remember "off the top of my head" - for example, the ABoK#1866 ( Sampan hitch ). ABoK#1809 is also interesting, because it is simpler.
This is not a knot.

GeneJohnson

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Re: Knot Development
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2014, 12:55:49 AM »
Actually Derek, the WE hangs down on the finished knot.  Therefore, I would not recommend going back over the top.  Simply place the HH directly on the bight, with the WE then protruding from the left side of the knot.  Regards!

Gene Johnson
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 12:58:39 AM by GeneJohnson »