Author Topic: Sliding Cows bend  (Read 3828 times)

xarax

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Sliding Cows bend
« on: February 13, 2014, 09:32:47 PM »
   If, in the single of double Fisherman s knot, we replace the sliding / interpenetrating single or double overhand knots with sliding / interpenetrating Cow hitches, we arrive at the bend shown in this thread. Another way one can reach this bend, is through the Double Harness bend - which is a most simple, secure and beautiful bend, but which can jam under heavy loading. We have seen that, in contrast to the Clove hitch, the Girth hitch does not jam (1). So, it is reasonable to try to replace the sliding / interpenetrating half hitches of the Double Harness bend with something that will jam less and/or only under heavier loading.
  I have presented some variations of the archetypal "Sliding halves" bend ( Miles s term ), the Fisherman s knot, at (2), and (3),(4),(5). The idea at (2) was to replace the fig.8 sliding / interpenetrating fig.8 stoppers with one of the three fig.9 stoppers, so the Standing Parts will follow more convoluted paths, with sharper U turns. In this thread, the idea is to utilize the tips of the collars of the Cow hitches for such sharp U-turns, but also make the ( second ) legs of those collars be squeezed upon each other, arranging them in a Double Harness-like configuration.
   This bend is very simple conceptually, so I believe it can be learned and memorized easily. One can first tie at the one end one fast Cow hitch, and then interweave the other within it, or proceed from both ends, and tuck the one end of the one link after the other.
  ( I take the liberty to show colour AND B&W pictures, although they have not been appreciated as much as they deserve  :) ).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347.msg27233#msg27233
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4764
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4771.msg30982#msg30982
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4771.msg30987#msg30987
5. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4771.msg31002#msg31002
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 10:08:55 PM by xarax »
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SS369

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Re: Sliding Cows bend
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 09:54:34 PM »
Good idea and can be extended into sliding bull hitches too. ;-)

You may be headed for fishing type knots before you know it.   :) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4756.msg30830#msg30830

SS
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 10:27:55 PM by SS369 »

xarax

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Re: Sliding Cows bend
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2014, 10:06:00 PM »
  Those Bull hitches :
  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.0
  See the attached picture of a Sliding / interpenetrating Prusiks bend you may like.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 11:51:57 AM by xarax »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Sliding Cows bend
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2014, 10:20:31 PM »
   If, in the single of double Fisherman s knot, ...
Which is to say Let us employ <this knot> in a
pull-together end-2-end knot
--many things work
by the general mechanism.

Quote
... sliding / interpenetrating Cow hitches,
we arrive at the bend shown in this thread.
No, not if you keep to the symmetry of your seed
--same-handedness in the components, mind!

And doing so, but replacing round cordage with flat
--i.e., tape/webbing (okay, yes, I want "c." to mean
"knottable materials")--, you get a quite secure and
strong-looking (IMO) joint for webbing.  (I have no
good feel for which ends are better loaded : in one
case, the exterior should give better test-bed strength
and security, but is harder to tie; the other way 'round,
with interior S.Parts, has protection from abuse, and
is easier to tie.

And note that for this pull-together application,
the girth/cow hitch / larkshead would assume not
the usual but a different form vis-a-vis its surfaces.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 10:28:56 PM by SS369 »

SS369

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Re: Sliding Cows bend
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2014, 10:29:46 PM »
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 10:31:18 PM by SS369 »

xarax

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Re: Sliding Cows bend
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2014, 11:04:00 PM »
   If, in the single of double Fisherman s knot, ...
   Which is to say Let us employ <this knot> in a pull-together end-2-end knot --many things work by the general mechanism.

  I have used the terminology of Miles ( p.73-74 ), who mentions that, of the 60 bends he shows, this "Sliding halves" mechanism is present at 7 - 
  and he makes the distinction between the two ways ( SH2 / SH4 ) the ends each one of those two halves can penetrate the nub of the other.
 
   pull-together ? ? Naah !  :)  Pull-against, perhaps ?

  No, if you keep to the symmetry of your seed --same-handedness in the components, mind !

  I have tied the "other" bend, and I have not been satisfied neither with its tightness ( it is not as compact ), nor with its looks - and I always prefer a bend, if flattish, to be side-symmetric ( as the Zeppelin bend, for example ): it needs one only picture !  :)
  Moreover, the Fisherman s knot itself can be tied the "other" way, and I do not believe that, when tied on ordinary materials, its security or strength is much jeopardised.

...which ends are better loaded...

  Waiting for a pop-up to resurface, I had planted a small trap : I have already mentioned which I consider as the "normal" and which the "reversed" form, in this "second" adjective I have used for the tail leg of the collar.  :) Also, with this loading, the whole nub of the knot lies in between the two first curves, so it is submitted to pressure along it full length, while the individual parts are submitted to tension : a good thing, regarding the nipping power of the various elements on the Tail ends, i.e., regarding security. And a more compact knot is always a prettier knot...

   
   

« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 11:07:47 PM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Sliding Cows bend
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 02:23:42 AM »
  Those Bull hitches :
  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.0

  Yes - or a clove based type.

   We have seen such bends at :
   
   Reply#38
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16425#msg16425

   Replies#53 - 59
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16485#msg16485
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16549#msg16549

   Reply#81 :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16869#msg16869
   
   See, at the attached pictures, some Clove bend variations from that 3 years old thread.

   However, the Clove bends do not look so tight to me, as the Sliding Cows bend - I think that they do not have the sharp turns and the collars required for a Dyneema bend - but I may underestimate the tendency of the Clove hitch to clinch tight / jam.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 02:26:15 AM by xarax »
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SS369

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Re: Sliding Cows bend
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 04:49:43 AM »
All those linked knots have worth, but I am unsure if they can survive a slow pull using the slippery Dyneema.
I believe after tying and trying a clove based bend, such as the one shown in your photo, using 300 lbs. that I can apply, it will slip at a higher % of breakage.
Remains to be tested/seen.

SS

xarax

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Re: Sliding Cows bend
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 05:38:39 AM »
All those linked knots have worth, but I am unsure if they can survive a slow pull using the slippery Dyneema.

  I agree. However, I only think of them as "knot bases", which we can always transform afterwards :

  If a known simple bend slips when tied on Dyneema, the most easy to remember ways to enhancing it are :

1. Re-tuck its Tail Ends once more through the same openings they were tucked in the first place.
2. Retuck its Tail Ends through the central opening of the bend.
3. Un-tuck the Tail Ends once, drive them turn around the Standing ends ( so they make a 180+ degrees turn, a collar, around the Standing ends ), and re-tuck them through the same openings they were tucked in the first place.
4. Use the Tail ends to tie half hitches around the Standing ends.
5. Add 180 degrees at the turns the Standing parts make around each other.

   The task is to get an easy to remember and to tie "knot base", with a clear, simple conceptually structure, easy to inspect and good looking,  - then, I am sure that one or more of those enhancements will do the job.
This is not a knot.