Author Topic: Winter bend  (Read 8034 times)

xarax

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Winter bend
« on: February 12, 2014, 05:40:34 PM »
   Last night I tied a bend that I have never tied before, and I took some quick and dirty B&W pictures of it - I do not like the reflexions of the flash on glossy surfaces of objects, especially in colour pictures.
   However, at the end I did nt like the appearance of even those B&W pictures, so, waiting for the sunrise, I spent my time editing them with various special effects of Picassa. I was lucky, because two of those modified pictures helped me chose a temporary name for this bend... :) . During today s most sunny and warm winter day, I took some new pictures, and I modified them a little bid, because I see that nobody is enlarging or downloading my pictures, so they should better show the best they can in small scale. I post all those pictures at the next posts, and I would be glad if any member who cares about the pictures of the knots, at least, tell me which of them he likes more - so I will keep those and delete all the others.
   
   
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2014, 05:41:46 PM »
2.
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2014, 05:42:39 PM »
3.
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2014, 05:43:22 PM »
4.
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2014, 05:44:20 PM »
5.
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2014, 06:25:23 PM »
Speaking about the photos: In general I like the bright ones best, as they look more real to me. And this real look gives better aid to visually tracing the routes taken through the knot, to me.
All are of excellent quality and you've hit upon the best light source.
I would say that if the simplest/easiest pictures do the job, don't invest the time and and effort, unless you like doing it.
I generally do not click on the black and white pictures.

As for the knot itself, I have not played with it yet, but I will when my hands thaw out.

BTW, thank you.

SS

roo

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2014, 07:16:31 PM »
   Last night I tied a bend that I have never tied before, and I took some quick and dirty B&W pictures of it - I do not like the reflexions of the flash on glossy surfaces of objects, especially in colour pictures.
   
Which ends are the free ends?
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xarax

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2014, 08:13:50 PM »
Which ends are the free ends?

  I have not shown the free ends, and I have not mentioned anything about this, on purpose !  :) I had hoped that somebody would ask, and that this would offer me the opportunity to comment on the issue.
  I have a theory, which I have repeated a number of times, but which I was not able to submit to the revealing, and relieving oftentimes, torture of the experiment : I think that the defence against slippage should be arranged as a defence against the enemies ( the tensile forces ) coming from outside with their full power ( from the Standing End, loaded with the 100% of the total load ), towards their final destination, where they would, hopefully, be totally absorbed ( to the Tail End, where the load would be diminished to 0%, otherwise the knot would slip ). As anybody who has visited a medieval castle knows, the defence is gradual, arranged in steps, the next harder to be outflanked than the previous one (1). This way, even under a lighter than the maximum loading, there would be fewer or no parts of the Standing part which would not be tensioned / which would remain slack, so, most of the time, almost no the part of the tighten knot will not contribute in the absorption of the tensile forces.
   If we have this theory in mind, we can distinguish the Standing from the Tail ends in a glance. Which ends are nipped more efficiently as they come out of the knot ? Those are the Tails.
  There is a yet another theory, which also has been neither proved nor disproved by experiments : We use to say that the continuations of the Standing ends should enter into the core of the knot s nub following curves as wide / smooth as possible. So, we try to make the paths of the Standing parts as gradually bending towards the centre of the knot as possible. So, in this bend, which ends follow wide paths as they enter into the nub ? Those are the Standing ends.

   Now, do I KNOW that this way of loading the bend would result in a less slippery and less weak knot ? Noope !  :) Who knows how this knot will "fold", when it will tied on a most slippery material...Who knows where the "weak link" of the knot will be, and where the line will break...
   So, all that I can do for the time being, is to wait patiently for the brave knot tyer who will test all the simple knots, to test this bend, too, in its "normal" AND in its reversed form. On ordinary materials and moderate loads, there was no slippage, and, of course, no breakage.
 
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4329.msg27113#msg27113
 
 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 08:18:56 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

roo

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2014, 08:32:20 PM »

   So, all that I can do for the time being, is to wait patiently for the brave knot tyer who will test all the simple knots, to test this bend, too, in its "normal" AND in its reversed form.
 
Maybe someone wants to tie all possible permutations, but for the rest of us, and for clarity of discussion, can you tell us which are the intended free ends of the normal form?
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xarax

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2014, 08:45:19 PM »
   I believe we are talking about symmetric bends, at least 99% of the time - so, the frightening "all possible permutations" is the smallest natural number after 1, the 2 !  :)
   I have already answered which should be considered the "normal" form, in two ways ! ( The rationale about the Tail ends, and about the Standing ends ). The pictures speak for themselves, IMHO.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 11:19:01 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2014, 10:14:45 PM »
I for one believe that the interested tyer would try the knot out both ways and glean from it what they can.
They may even stumble upon something...

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roo

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2014, 10:51:26 PM »
   I have already answered which should be considered the "normal" form, in two ways ! ( The rationale about the Tail ends, and about the Standing ends ). The pictures speak for themselves, I do not believe that I should use the Google translator to tell the same thing in my "native language"...
Have it your way.  Don't complain about people not looking at your images, then.
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xarax

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2014, 11:18:01 PM »
   Knot tyers who do not know, but also do not wish to learn, therefore they can not understand what the different roles the Standing and the Tail ends have to play, should better NOT look at images neither of me, as you say ( "your images"(sic) ), nor of any knot:)

   I have tried to explain this theory - about the Standing part better been nipped harder at latter than earlier places - in the same thread, in a previous post of the one I had referred to :
 
  If the first line is weaker than the later, the chances are that both lines will be collaborating most of the time - simply because the first will need the second more times than it would had needed it had it been stronger. So, if the first line of defence against slippage is weaker than the second, most of the time we will have both lines working in tandem, without the segment of the rope between them be slack - i.e., most of the time we will have a compact knot s nub. On the contrary, if the first line of defence is stronger than the second, it will, alone, hold more times than if it would have hold had it been weaker, without any help from the second line, or from anybody else ! Soldiers on the second line will have a good time just watching what is happening, that is true - although they will not be able to enjoy the view, and see their enemies been exterminated, because their inner fortress will be lower than the outer fortification walls... If I were a general (brrr...), I would not feel so happy to sit on the top of a low tower, without been able to see what is happening outside the higher outer fortification wars, AND with the sight of all those lazy soldiers around me, that, most of the times, will not fight, and will be not utilized ( = will not die).
   If the fist line of defence is weaker than the second, regarding the same distribution of weak and strong external loadings, both lines will be used simultaneously more times than if it had been weaker... I have seen this in practice. The ropes I use are 9 - 12,5 mm climbing ropes, and the loadings to which I am able to test them are weak, relatively to their size. So, many times I have seen an end-to-end knot (bend) or an eyeknot ( loop) that has not been optimally designed according to this idea I had tried to explain, where the "first" places the pulled standing end or eye leg are bent or nipped are the only ones that are really needed and loaded - and the remaining places remain remaining a heavy enough load... where their collaboration will, at last, be needed and used. That means that, most of the time, such a knot would need a careful set up, and a strong pull of the tail, to become compact and reach its "final" form - the weak loading by itself will only leave the "later"/"second" part of the rope unused, and the segment(s) between this part and the "earlier" / "first" part loose... 

   If the brave knot tyer would test both versions, and finds the "normal" inferior to the "reversed" one, this would be great ! I would had dispensed with a one knot and one conjecture about knots, at one go !  :) My knot toolbox would become lighter !
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2014, 08:33:22 AM »
   Last night I tied a bend that I have never tied before, and I took some quick and dirty B&W pictures of it - I do not like the reflexions of the flash on glossy surfaces of objects, especially in colour pictures.
   
Which ends are the free ends?
I think that I met this knot once previously, with
some whimsy of rambling around and going What
if ... ?!
--never know where that'll lead.
(It did not lead to such intriguing imagery as here!)

This can be seen as Ashley's #1452 with the
tails drawn out of the collars; it enables a change
of geometry that is fascinating (and jamming).
Or one might pull on the other parts,
or go asymmetric in loading --the 3rd way, here.
I'll surmise that the first is as intended.

I just illustrated an end-2-end knot and showed
it with tails that had been intended as S.Parts
when fiddling it --it was in that way, a securing,
a S.Parts-twist-extending variation on the reef
(I'd wanted to keep the initial twist of S.Parts,
but to soften their U-turns seen in the reef.)
But I came to it in material in which that wasn't
obvious, and I found the tails-loading (though
at the time I wasn't sure of which ...) to be
more appealing!


--dl*
====

ps : I'm relieved that what we have here is an
excess of one knot's images and not of soooo
many more knots for me to be held remiss in
not analyzing, testing, and commenting upon!
(A unicorn has just the single marlinespike to
poke around with, and all.)

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Winter bend
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2014, 08:43:03 AM »
...
This can be seen as Ashley's #1452 with the
tails drawn out of the collars; it enables a change
of geometry that is fascinating (and jamming).
Actually, good sir, it is better than this : it is
"forcibly loosenable" !!  --pulling the tails of the
"jammed" (it does jam securely vs. loosening)
knot will pull in S.Part material and loosen it!

And loaded opposite to how you, good sir, thought
best, above, one finds shakehands or the like coming
into form!  --what an interesting transformation.
(Yes, vague memories are being stirred.)

By what mystical lacings does this Xarax seek to bind
us in mental tangles of our own weak perceptions?


--dl*
====

ps : I'm now slightly less relieved in that what we have
here is some echoed images of a tangle that holds more
*knots* than one might suspect!