Author Topic: True-Lover's Knot with Interlocked Crowns  (Read 1277 times)

NautiKnots

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True-Lover's Knot with Interlocked Crowns
« on: July 10, 2017, 10:15:05 PM »
Here's a knot that I evolved when exploring the class of True-Lover's Knots -- that is, knots consisting of two individual overhand knots which (when drawn up) form a single unified knot.  Have you seen it before?  It's straightforward enough that I expect someone must have come up with it already.

I've attached photos of the knot in the form of a bend, open (to show the topology), and two loops.  To me , the drawn-up knot resembles a Footrope Knot but with a different lead.  In its open form, you can see the two overhand knots, and that the crowns of the overhand knots are fully interlocked with each other.  This is the most intertwined True-Lover's Knot that I have found. 

As a bend, it looks to me like it should be quite strong.  The lead is straight well into the interior of the knot, and there are no tight radii.  Every place the line curves, it wraps around 3 others.  It has constrictions on the top and sides of the knot.  I though this might be a good bend for Dyneema, but it did not pan out.  The knot rolled under heavy load.  Ultimately, it had insufficient nip.  This bend might work better in stiff or large-diameter line, but probably is more decorative than practical.

One thing I think is interesting about this knot, is that the open form is symmetric both side-to-side and end-to-end, so the lead is completely reversible.  That is, if you loosen the knot, and pull the working ends apart, the knot capsizes back into the exact same form (and even the same chirality).  Only the lead has changed.  The two loops I showed are the same knot - I simply dressed it differently by pulling opposite ends.  Are there other knots that capsize into the exact same shape?

Regards,
Eric
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 02:40:45 PM by NautiKnots »

NautiKnots

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How to tie the knot
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 10:41:40 PM »
Here is how to tie the knot.

Step 1:  Begin the same as Ashley's Bend (ABoK 1452).  To complete Ashley's Bend, you would simply pass both working ends down through the center of the two loops.  Instead of that, however:

Step 2:  Rearrange the two loops as shown.  Be sure to put the right-side crossing on top of the left-side loop.  If you don't, you'll wind up with a different knot (which is still an interesting one).

Step 3:  Cross one end over the two central strands and tuck it down.

Step 4:  Bring the other end over the first, cross the two central strands, and tuck it down.

To dress the knot, simply pull the standing ends away from each other.  If the line is stiff or grippy, you may need to tug on the working ends as well.

If you want the reversed lead form, pull the working ends apart instead of the standing ends.

This knot is closely related to ABoK 1452 - only the final tuck is different.

Regards,
Eric
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 02:31:00 PM by NautiKnots »

NautiKnots

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If you get Step 2 backwards...
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 11:43:04 PM »
If you happen to put the right-side crossing beneath the left loop (contrary to step 2 above) as shown in the first photo below, then you wind up with a different knot.  It's open structure is shown in the second photo.  You can see that the two overhand knot's crowns are not interlocked - only one crown of each captures the other knot.  When pulled taut, you get a bend very similar to Ashley's Bend (ABoK 1452)  except that the working ends are separated rather than side-by-side.  I think that should make it inferior to ABoK 1452 (less nip).  If you capsize the bend by pulling the working ends rather than the standing ends, you get the knot in the last photo.  This bend has very little going for it other than being a true-lover's knot that is vaguely heart-shaped when viewed from a working end.

Regards,
Eric
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 02:32:36 PM by NautiKnots »

NautiKnots

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Re: True-Lover's Knot with Interlocked Crowns
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2017, 11:51:55 PM »
I replaced the pictures with right-handed versions to match Ashley's diagram of knot # 1452, so that should fix the problem.

I just realized that the photographs I posted show the bends tied left-handed, rather than the right-handed version as illustrated by Ashley in ABoK 1452.  I apologize for any confusion that causes.

Regards,
Eric
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 02:44:26 PM by NautiKnots »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: How to tie the knot
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 07:51:57 PM »
This knot is closely related to ABoK 1452 - only the final tuck is different.

Hmmm, IMO, there's an ample difference as manifest
at your third image in the Reply#1:: tying #1452 by first making
an overhand in one end, and then reeving the 2nd end into
this, the blue line would come rightwards up to cross over
the red tail and turn clockwise back under two red parts
to where the shown blue X/crossing is, ... and so on --which
it much differs from in the presented case.

IMO, the tying of all these interlocked-overhands knots
is best done by making an initial overhand knot in one
end and then reeving in the other per whichever result
is wanted : Ashley's 1452, 1408, 1425, zeppelin, SmitHunters',
shakehands, ...
.  Ashley, i.p., makes an ambiguous presentation
of *his* knot, leaving it for others to point out the refinements
which can have effects on behavior.  (Long ago one person
posted here about #1452 jamming and it took a while to
realized what version he'd used; most of them do NOT jam.)

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 07:53:12 PM by Dan_Lehman »

NautiKnots

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Re: How to tie the knot
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 09:07:35 PM »

Hmmm, IMO, there's an ample difference as manifest
at your third image in the Reply#1:: tying #1452 by first making
an overhand in one end, and then reeving the 2nd end into
this, the blue line would come rightwards up to cross over
the red tail and turn clockwise back under two red parts
to where the shown blue X/crossing is, ... and so on --which
it much differs from in the presented case.
Well, the method of tying shown is close, although the amount of entanglement produced is quite different.  In step 3, if one crossed a single strand before tucking (ditto in step 4), then #1452 would result.  Instead, I crossed two strands before tucking.  That's all.

Which, I suppose just goes to show that a small change can make a big difference - something Ashley would agree with.  For what it's worth, I usually tie this bend by first making a loose two-strand footrope knot and capsizing it into shape.  I've done a fair amount of square knotting, so the 2-strand footrope knot comes easily.  It's exactly how I begin a zipper or shackle pull - "first a crown; next a wall;...".  Just add "...then tuck up; and that's all" to complete the footrope knot.

That's how I originally met Ashley's Bend.  I was experimenting with capsizing true-lover's knots into bends to see if anything useful arose.  I tied a 2-strand diamond knot, capsized it into a footrope knot, and then capsized it again into a bend.  Once I realized what the intermediate stage was, I switched to tying the footrope knot first.  Just looking at the bend, I immediately thought it would be strong and secure, so I hunted through Ashley's book and discovered that it was already there as #1452 (and had tested well).  Later I found that others had named it after Clifford Ashley.

I haven't seen the knot above (nor the second one shown) presented anywhere else, though.

Regards,
Eric

KnotMe

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Re: True-Lover's Knot with Interlocked Crowns
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2017, 05:02:34 AM »
Paracord guild recently posted 2 triangular lanyard knots that are similar to what you've got here, but yours has an extra loop

two strand stopper - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azMbFDLKJYE
two strand diamond - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZGuQOScJlo