Author Topic: Ascot bowline  (Read 4603 times)

Valentine

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Ascot bowline
« on: November 27, 2013, 05:47:55 AM »
I first tied this knot when investigating variants of the graf bowline, and set it aside since it looked interesting. On further investigation, it seems to be quite secure while being simple to tie and very easy to untie.



I call it the ascot bowline because it looks to me like a bowline that's wearing an ascot above its collar. When the knot is tight from loading, this second collar can be flipped up, which lets the rest of the knot loosen like a standard bowline. Ring loading seems to cause the tail to pull into the knot a tiny bit, but this is reduced on further ring-loading cycles unless the knot is tightened with heavy straight loading first. Thoughts?

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Ascot bowline
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2013, 09:26:23 AM »
   Have a look at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4283.msg28689#msg28689
   It is a kind of pseudo -"braided" bowline - a very simple but effective solution, IMHO.

   
in those blue images --"but a round turn that ..."-- has been published by Harry Asher as variously the "enhanced / brummycham[?] bowline".  One can imagine more wraps.

This is not a knot.

Valentine

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Ascot bowline
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2013, 08:43:10 AM »
Thank you. While the ascot bowline has a similar structure to the braided bowlines, particularly the simplified one you linked to, the straight entry of the eye leg produces what seems to me to be a significant change in behavior. Rather than laying loose like a braid, it compacts the knot tightly against the nipping loop and enforces the tightness of three 180-degree-plus turns. This seems to me to make the knot more resistant to unusual and cyclic loading. Ring loading causes the ascot bowline to tighten its existing configuration, while it can cause the simplified braided bowline to shift around and compact to a configuration kind of like the dressed ascot bowline. I imagine how an ascot bowline could include more wraps, but I am doubtful of the merits of doing that. The tie-in incorporates a harness-bend-like structure in addition to a bowline finish, and judging by the security of that bend, there would be rather heavy diminishing returns for additional wraps.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Ascot bowline
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2013, 11:20:40 AM »
...the straight entry of the eye leg produces what seems to me to be a significant change in behavior. Rather than laying loose like a braid, it compacts the knot tightly against the nipping loop and enforces the tightness of three 180-degree-plus turns.

   If you prefer tight, compact knot nubs, you are right. In that respect, this bowline is a new knot, indeed ( at least to me - I have not read Harry Asher s book ) - because you have chosen to pass the continuation of the returning eye leg = first leg of the collar under the second leg, and this seemingly insignificant detail can make a great difference, in so simple a knot (*). However, the advantage of the genuine braided bowline ( but, to some degree, of the pseudo-braided bowlines, too ), was not meant to have any relation with compactness : as its author said, the braided structure around the Standing end above the collar is able to absorb sudden pulls, because it acts like a spring absorber.
   Regarding security against slippage, we can not say if a compact nub offers more or less ! The braided structure, as the Malvolio stockings "cross gartered" structure of the ABoK#1755 / #1756 and of the rat tail stopper, are not compact, but they are more secure than all the other compact hitches around ropes able to withstand lengthwise pull. 

(*)
In the [ knot shown ]... we can keep the standing end as it is, and interchange the two legs of the bight component / collar structure, so the direct continuation of the eye leg of the Tail side becomes the Tail, and vice versa. I have no clue which of the two variations of each knot is more secure...
   
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 12:02:53 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1916
Re: Ascot bowline
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2013, 05:21:40 PM »
Ring loading causes the ascot bowline to tighten its existing configuration, while it can cause the simplified braided bowline to shift around and compact to a configuration kind of like the dressed ascot bowline. I imagine how an ascot bowline could include more wraps, but I am doubtful of the merits of doing that. The tie-in incorporates a harness-bend-like structure in addition to a bowline finish, and judging by the security of that bend, there would be rather heavy diminishing returns for additional wraps.

Hi Valentine and thank you for a nice addition to explore.
While I like this offering of yours I have a small bit of exception to your take on the ring loading aspect of this configuration. Might I recommend further experimenting with cords and rope with "stouter" construction.  As shown in the attached picture, a side by side comparison of the ascot versus the braided bowline (the one I introduced) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4283.msg26651#msg26651, where they were both subjected to the same amount of ring loading.
The ascot shows signs of the tangled cluster opening and gaping, which in my mind is not a good thing. So, I personally believe that the additional wraps/weaves are a good thing, for additional reasons as well, as Xarax points out in his last post.

SS