Author Topic: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?  (Read 13321 times)

Tangled

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Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« on: August 20, 2013, 08:16:51 PM »
This is in regards to keeping the end of braided slippery synthtic ropes from unraveling.  I don't want to sear the end because of the fumes polymers give off, so I've been whipping them.  My problem comes from the fact that no matter how tight I whip it, it eventually pulls off.   

Is there a particular type of whipping I should use, should I used electrical or similiar tape, or should I look at dipping the ends in low temp hotmelt glue?

Thanks in advance.

roo

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2013, 08:33:31 PM »
This is in regards to keeping the end of braided slippery synthtic ropes from unraveling.  I don't want to sear the end because of the fumes polymers give off, so I've been whipping them.  My problem comes from the fact that no matter how tight I whip it, it eventually pulls off.   

Is there a particular type of whipping I should use, should I used electrical or similiar tape, or should I look at dipping the ends in low temp hotmelt glue?

Thanks in advance.
Heat sealing usually works so well you may consider just "producing fumes" outdoors while standing upwind of the process.  You could also stand near a fan.

You can also drastically reduce the amount of fumes produced by keeping the heat as low as possible.   If you buy a portable electric burner (or adjustable heat knife) and cover the burner with aluminum foil for easy cleanup, you'll be able to dial in the exact amount of heat that you need.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 09:25:03 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2013, 09:03:14 PM »
I don't get much fumes when I sear ends.  Burning the ends does work really well and is a major reason I like synthetic fibers over natural fibers (e.g., jute twine).

As one solution to fumes if it really bothers you, hold your breath for about twenty seconds while you're searing the ends, put the rope down, walk away, and come back when any fumes have dissipated.  The diluted fumes are probably not as bad as what comes out of the back of a car that passes you on a street.

Also, I would think with any glue dip, you also have a fumes issue.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 09:08:00 PM by knot4u »

SS369

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2013, 11:41:15 PM »
This is in regards to keeping the end of braided slippery synthtic ropes from unraveling.  I don't want to sear the end because of the fumes polymers give off, so I've been whipping them.  My problem comes from the fact that no matter how tight I whip it, it eventually pulls off.   

Is there a particular type of whipping I should use, should I used electrical or similiar tape, or should I look at dipping the ends in low temp hotmelt glue?

Thanks in advance.

Hello Tangled and welcome.

If you like the whipped ends and your whipping twine is not too large, just procure an appropriate needle and pass the twine through the rope during the whipping process. It won't come off then.

Also they make whip end dip. http://www.amazon.com/CMI-Whip-End-Dip-Clear/dp/B0047QXM5I Or something like this. Some are water based and odorless. I have used Mod Podge http://www.plaidonline.com/mod-podge/brand/home.htm and even Elmer's glue in the past.
These should meet your needs.

Hope this helps.

SS

Tangled

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 02:33:39 AM »
Thanks for the tip about needle and thread.  I had completely forgotten about sailmakers whipping, and there is no shortage of the heavyweight sewing gear in my kit.  I'll play around with it with my next project.      EDIT: I'm sensative to a lot of the organic solvents, so the fumes are a problem for me.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 02:39:23 AM by Tangled »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2013, 07:36:23 PM »
What SIZE cordage are you having problems whipping?
--and what type of material (nylon, polyester, PP, ...)?

Since you write "ropes", I'm presuming that you mean
cordage that is 1/4" (5-6mm) or larger.  For that, I then
must ask What whipping methods have you empolyed?
--for I should think that in material that substantial,
it will be possible to secure whipping tight enough to not
slide off.

That said, Scott's suggestion to engage the whipping
through its object is appropriate --a simple assurance.
Thinking of kernmantle ropes, though, I don't believe
that I have a good method for doing this (and frankly
haven't felt the need).  For some small, loosely constructed
cordage --where whipping will be so small as to preclude
tightening with much force--, I will often bring a bight
of the whipping through the material and use that to
nip some initial tight wraps, and the continue with
various methods for the rest of the binding.  (I use
various fishline, tea-bag strings, strips of fibrillated
polyethylene, and whatever else is right-sized small.)

One can set an extended strangle knot with a common
/sailor's whipping
finish in one side quite tightly,
with tools (somethings to give a good, comfortable
grip on ends; pliers or hammer-like to compress the
wraps in hope of evening out the tension of wraps
(which get loaded from ends of the coil)).  This shouldn't budge.
[hoping that a Search of this site brings up my images
 of such things; below is an echo of one image]
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2225.msg17672#msg17672

A potential problem with melting by flame is that the
melted end can yield sharp parts that snag fibres.
OTOH, one can bind an end with tape and try to
heat-melt it thus, for a neater finish; and one can
sometimes smooth around the melted end.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 07:07:55 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Wed

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2013, 08:10:30 PM »
Fluid cyanoacrylate glue works for several cases. See if it's suitable for your specific rope. It goes into the fibres nicely and sets to a hard lump. Protruding strands can be sharp. But they can be sanded or filed down.

It isn't very nice to inhale. So don't.

Sweeney

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2013, 08:39:44 PM »
You might like to try shrink tubing. Pick a size suitable for your rope and cut about an inch of tube. Now slide the tube over the rope end and take it well away from the end. Put some contact glue over the last inch of rope, slide the tube over the glue and apply heat with eg a hair dryer. As soon as the glue has set trim the end with sharp knife.

Tangled

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2013, 09:06:22 PM »
Dan - I'm referring to 1/4-  1/2 inch braided over parallel core rope.  Primarily polypropylene and polyester outer braids.   I've tries Sailors, Improved, French, and West Country whipping.  Most of my experience has come from serving my own bowstrings, which are very long and always close out with a backserving.  The strangle and constrictors knots I only use for temporary fixes.

I've gotten the best luck with carpet or upholstery thread.  I've tried #4 nylon and Spectra(?) bowstring serving thread, dental floss, embroidery floss, and the core strands from 550 cord. 

Wed - Solvents include curing CA fumes.  I'm not bleeping around about being sensitive to them. 

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2013, 04:54:48 PM »
Dan - I'm referring to 1/4-  1/2 inch braided over parallel core rope.
Primarily polypropylene and polyester outer braids.
Ah, thanks.  These sound amply substantial to be
amenable to the whipping with an extended strangle
knot
as I've shown --those were approximately 1/2"
ropes, with the green&yellow a new-sample arborist rope.

Quote
I've tries Sailors, Improved, French, and West Country whipping.
...  The strangle and constrictor knots I only use for temporary fixes.
Why "temporary", one might wonder?  --esp. with all
those knots books parroting the rumor that constrictor
knots
need to be cut off!?

Note that I recommend an extended strangle knot;
this is one with e.g. 4-12 wraps and an extra twist beneath
them, of the ends.  The strangle is chosen because of its
orientation of ends (compressed within it) roughly parallel
to the whipped line --they can fit nicely (beware if too
loosely!) in the groove of laid rope, e.g..  And what I like
to do is have one "end" be in fact a bight with which
I will then form a common whipping wrapping and the
haul that tight.  (I usually have this on the away-from-end
side as it's easier to put in, and to haul the end opposed to
the entire line, rather than having to grip the short whipped
end and haul the whipping's end line-wards.)
.:.  There should be no problem with these whippings.

Possibly, the nylon mason line (golden) that you can see
in my photo(s) will even shrink and further tighten upon
being soaked in water!?  But one of the reasons I favor
the extended strangle whipping is that the knot can
be so well tightened after it's tied --presuming the material
can withstand the force.  (Where I'm working with weaker
and more frictive whipping material --e.g., cotton string--,
I then use a whipping where each wrap (roughy) is put on
tight, and not needing to be further tightened by setting
(since material friction and weakness won't allow that).)

So, I suggest that you redouble your efforts and maybe
improve your method/material with an extended strangle
whipping
; I think that you'll like the results.

Especially with ropes of 3/8 - 1/2" diameter, mason line
(approx. 150# strength, IIRC) --and, hey, such colors!--
should work well, with 5-8 overwraps (counting them
between the visible points of the ends diving beneath
them, on the ends-crossing side of the knot), and one
extra twist-tuck of the ends beneath the wraps.  Dress
nicely, haul ends with help of tools for comfort & grip
with hands (e.g., a stoppered short end gripped by
forceps and then wrapped around them, and the
long-still-leading-into-spool end with a pile hitch
to say a screwdriver.  Pliers are used to squeeze
the whipping in hopes of equalizing the tension
among the wraps (hauling puts tension high near
the ends; we want to distribute that to the center).
Pounding/rolling on a hard surface can help, too.

With monofilament nylon fish line (discards of which
are easily gotten in Cape May), I actually don't know
the given "size" (put in terms of some nominal strength)
but it's similar to the mason line (or smaller, for thinner
lines being whipped), and I find that it works best with
6-9 overwraps --it's lesser flexibility of buried twists
needs more cover, AND it is slippery enough to also
distribute tension more easily.

Quote
I've gotten the best luck with carpet or upholstery thread.
I've tried #4 nylon and Spectra(?) bowstring serving thread, dental floss,
embroidery floss, and the core strands from 550 cord. 

All of these sound like mighty small/thin/weak materials,
incapable of the tightening I describe above, and so that
might be why you're having some troubles with them!?
Still, sewing through the line in some way should work.
Inkanyezi's finely done whippings have endured a couple
decades, of use (IIRC); admittedly, mine are put on only
in "play ropes" whose use is in fiddling knots; sometimes
that, though, can entail pulling out an end such that an
inferior whipping will be pulled off (yep, I've done it, with
say a loosened simple constrictor).


--dl*
====

ps : To those (incl. me) suggesting chemical whippings,
"SACRILEGE !!" --this is a knotting forum!    ;D
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 07:15:37 PM by Dan_Lehman »

DDK

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2013, 03:12:22 PM »

--dl*
====

ps : To those (incl. me) suggesting chemical whippings,
"SACRILEGE !!" --this is a knotting forum!    ;D

And exactly what were those synthetic fibers before they became synthetic fibers?  I'm afraid the "SACRILEGE" boat has already sailed.   ;D  -- DDK

kd8eeh

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2013, 04:07:41 AM »
I'd like to see a way to do this with no special materials, just hands and possibly the tool that you cut the rope with, since that is when you would fuse it. My first thought is to cut out a bit of the core and tie a simple stopper to hold the casing together. Any other ideas?

saildude

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2013, 10:50:33 PM »
I use a cross between the quick temporary whipping that is not all that secure and the standard whipping with frapping turns at 90 degrees - I have one set of frapping turns through the line

I think you need to go through the core to make it secure.  So that means a sailmakers needle and a palm.  The link below is to a how do do it on my site - the whipping only takes a few minutes.  Usually takes me more time to dig out the materials than to make the whipping.

Hope this helps a bit


http://captnmike.com/2011/10/26/mikes-quick-rope-whipping/

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Whip, tape, or glue dip for slippery synthetics?
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2013, 08:25:33 AM »
I think you need to go through the core to make it secure.
So that means a sailmakers needle and a palm.

On the first, I challenge that : see the strangle whipping(s)
shown in the thread cited above for some very tight such
whippings --and try to figure how they could be insecure!

Irrespective of the first assertion, the 2nd in a non sequitur:
one can go through the line and then do other things than
a sailmaker's whipping (and without a needle & palm);
the penetration will still be there to give that bit of security.
E.g., when whipping really small stuff (3mm, e.g.) on which
whipping just can't be so tight given the necessary materials,
I will poke a bight of whipping through the cord and put
in a few tight wraps around the cord and through this bight,
then draw down the bight upon the wrapped (and short)
end, and go on whipping with the long end in some way.

Given enough "play ropes" to whip, one can explore all
sorts of whippings.


 :)