Yosemite Bowline Pitfall!

[Hopkins]

While playing with bowline variants today, I noticed that I have naturally learned to tie the bowline such that the free end finishes "inside" the two parts of rope that would be around ones waist, and that this appears to be the standard way of tying the bowline - even though most directions are not explicit in this respect.  While searching on this topic, I was interested to discover that tying the knot so that the free end is on the outside is called the "cowboy" variant, even though it appears to be similarly secure:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3286.0

Interestingly, that post touched on the subject of my question: performing a Yosemite bowline on the cowboy variant.  In the post above, alpineer shows how to do something similar to a Yosemite bowline on a cowboy variant with a sensible result.  However, if one were to tie a cowboy bowline and attempt to follow the sequence of steps described to turn a normal bowline into a Yosemite bowline, then it partially unties the bowline although the resulting knot still seems usable to some extent.  I wouldn't put any faith in it were I climbing, but I am interested to know if the result is a "recognised" knot, and if it has any applications!

[Luca]

Hi Hopkins,

I'm not sure what you describe;I enclose a diagram which can be a hypothesis of how it could be a left handed version of the Yosemite Bowline, this too can be tiable in the bight (and may also involve the same misconception about how it can be dressed, as described on page 19 of this document http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/Bowlines_Analysis.pdf ).The collar forms a so-called Fig. of 9 instead of a Fig. of 8 as is the case for the standard Yosemite Bowline.

                                                                                                                    Bye!

[Hopkins]

Hi Luca,

Many thanks for the reply and thank you for taking the time to reply and include an illustration and link to the document "An Analysis of Bowlines".  It makes me a little ashamed that, in my haste to post in the middle of a working day, I did not have the time to include an illustration!  The document looks fantastic, and I look forward to reading it in its entirety.

I have attached four images.  The first two show the knot which you have described.  The second two show the know I attempted to describe.  The difference is that your version includes a 360 degree turn around the "eye-leg of the tail side" before the figure of 9 (and appears to remain a bowline), whereas mine does not.  Although it is not obvious in the untightened picture, when tightened this appears to remove the nipping turn or, at least, completely destabilises the knot.  That said, it seems reasonably secure under load, although have not tested this...  However, the lack of a clear nipping turn means that it is probably no longer a legitimate member of the bowline family.

[Hopkins]

To make it clearer as to why my described knot ceases to be a bowline, here is an intermediary stage of tightening, showing how the tail "pops" out of the nipping turn.

[Hopkins]

To make it clearer as to why my described knot ceases to be a bowline, here is an intermediary stage of tightening, showing how the tail "pops" out of the nipping turn.

Having read some more of that document, perhaps it could still be considered part of the bowline family because the nipping turn still encircles the bite, even though it crosses over.  After more pulling around, is definitely not very stable, so still not very usable, despite my interest academically!

[Luca]

Hi Hopkins,

I think the Bowline you show is one of the other three versions of Dan Lehman's Locked Bowline illustrated below.
Here he describes how to get the four versions:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4476.msg29355#msg29355

                                                                                                               Bye!