Author Topic: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like  (Read 10110 times)

erizo1

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2013, 02:42:16 PM »
That's a new one for me, and seems like a terrific improvement.
I get much less loss of tension with the Gelipnir X; ...

And yet I wonder why : on relatively *small* (surface
contacted) areas, and i.p. smaller diameter round objects,
the *clearance* of the turNip's ends off of the object
is relatively significant; but I'd think that where this
isn't the case, there should be little difference (say,
no difference in mid-air) --what could account for it?
(In the making-contact-with-surface case, possibly
pressure against the object, along with the nip?)

I only tried it quickly, and around an object so that the turNip was in contact with the object. After a quick test, I think you must be right, Dan_Lehman: as a mid-air binder the Gleipnir X has no advantage, but against an object it held better for me with less retraction and loss of tension.

Festy

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2013, 04:15:54 PM »

Is there a fast tying method for the Gleipnir X as there is for the standard Gleipnir?

knot4u

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2013, 04:20:45 PM »
That's a new one for me, and seems like a terrific improvement.
I get much less loss of tension with the Gelipnir X; ...

And yet I wonder why : on relatively *small* (surface
contacted) areas, and i.p. smaller diameter round objects,
the *clearance* of the turNip's ends off of the object
is relatively significant; but I'd think that where this
isn't the case, there should be little difference (say,
no difference in mid-air) --what could account for it?
(In the making-contact-with-surface case, possibly
pressure against the object, along with the nip?)

I only tried it quickly, and around an object so that the turNip was in contact with the object. After a quick test, I think you must be right, Dan_Lehman: as a mid-air binder the Gleipnir X has no advantage, but against an object it held better for me with less retraction and loss of tension.

Yeah but the Gleipnir X holds enough tension for you to wrap the ends again and tie a Reef. That system includes two knots (Gleipnir and Reef).

In comparison, a Versatackle is a combination of basically 3 knots (two loops and wraps inside loops). It's basically 4 knots if you end with Two Half Hitches. On top of that, you don't have the benefit of multiple wraps around the object.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 04:23:19 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2013, 04:27:38 PM »

Is there a fast tying method for the Gleipnir X as there is for the standard Gleipnir?

Treat one end as an infinite standing end, and let the other end do the work. Short of a video, I don't know how else to explain. I can tie a Gleipnir X just as fast as I can tie my shoelaces.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 04:31:05 PM by knot4u »

Sweeney

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2013, 05:33:14 PM »
Much though I like the Gleipnir especially Dan's variant using a fixed loop I don't find it all that good - in any form - around a small area. Leaving heresy aside (using stretchy electrical tape) I would probably try ABoK #1992 first - essentially a figure 8 around the standing part but after a full round turn, heaved tight and finished with a half hitch or two around the tail of the figure 8 (with the standing part). A good friend of mine (an ex-butcher) uses this daily in tying up the cores for fenders using slippery polypropylene twine and a heaving bar to get the binding VERY tight.

NotSure

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2013, 07:13:57 PM »
...
So here's the puzzle: what's the best binder for a situation where you're splinting or bundling irregularly shaped objects, such that you can't rely on having a nice convex spot for a constrictor or strangle knot? Parameters:
  • For the moment, I don't care about untying it later, so a jamming knot is just as good as one that's easy to untie
  • Assume that the application is such that the objects being tied are hard with no give, and that they need to be held as tightly as possible
...

If you would like to only use 1 wrap around the object(s) then I think the Corned Beef Knot for this is wonderful!

To improve on the Corned Beef Knot, use a Sailor's Hitch instead of the Buntline Hitch and tie it in exactly the same manner (around it's own standing end instead of the object to be bound).

I find the Sailor's Hitch tied in this manner has more friction to hold the tension while you lock off the Corned Beef Knot with a Half Hitch than the Buntline does. As an added bonus, it's also easier to untie.

If you have enough cordage for multiple wraps around the object(s) to be bound, then I would go for either
  • the Gleipnir X or (if there's too much give after tensioning)
  • a Well Pipe Hitch ABoK 504 (and again, tying it off with a Sailor's Hitch on the standing end instead of 2 Half Hitch's).

Edit: Oops, I see my response is almost the same as Sweeney's above  :-[

I recommend the Half Hitch lock to be in the manner of the Corned Beef or the Packer's Knot instead of the way's it's depicted in ABoK 1992 though... (I think Sweeney is saying this as well)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 07:33:23 PM by NotSure »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2013, 07:43:29 PM »
In comparison, a Versatackle is a combination of basically 3 knots (two loops and wraps inside loops). It's basically 4 knots if you end with Two Half Hitches. On top of that, you don't have the benefit of multiple wraps around the object.

Depends on how you implement the general scheme.
E.g., in putting on a binding on a bike pedal stirrup/cage,
I simply coiled some fishline --which point was in fact
to BE an abrasion-resistant "multiple wraps" clump--
and then simply (IIRC : I did this sort of on the fly)
took an end from one side up & back through the
ends of the now pressed-against-pedal/stirrup coil
(so, now this coil is pretty oval, not round) to make
the tightening-&-locking part of the general scheme.
This worked (!).

So, one is pressing some 3/4-of-circumference "multiple
wraps" worth of material against the bound objects,
and then connecting the bight ends of this coil with
the versatackle-like back'n'forth wrapping.
(One could tie off the working end with a clove hitch
to the coil and then do the locking reeving & pulling;
similarly, the other end can be simplied tied off.)

Now, this was definitely a quick-&-dirty sort of solution,
where the fishline is cheaply abundant and obviously
adequate for the job, slippery enough to help with the
tension equalizing?!   Eh, it held, and looked good.  YMMV.

I've no good idea about how well tension is distributed
across the "coil" of material.  Surely it's not as good as
when one puts on each wrap individually.

--dl*
====

Festy

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2013, 06:40:36 PM »
Erizo1, take a look at these 3 bad boys!

Canadian Jam

End-of-the-Line Loop Jam

Ohio Jam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4dMv6BtEPw

no muss, no fuss  ;)

F


kd8eeh

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2013, 03:57:04 AM »
Another suggestion (although it does have the handicap of needing to choose how much tension you will want beforehand, largely by trial and error) is to use a monster munter (a zigzag knot one step bigger than a munter).  you do this by securing the tail to the knot such that it forms a loop around the standing part, and then you pull two loops around the standing part apart to the desired distance.  By pulling the standing part, the loops are pulled on top of one another, and because of tension behind them, they hold the tension.  the farther appart they start out, the tighter you will have to pull to achieve this, and so the tighter it will stay.  Stability is enhanced by applying a load to the standing part, and it is very easy to untie.  I will try to get pictures up if this sounds confusing.

knot4u

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2013, 05:55:16 PM »
A Versatackle would work, and since you don't care about untying things, you could even employ simple overhand loops for simplicity or speed.

As a Versatackle variation, tie just one loop with a long standing end.  A bowline works fine.  Size the loop properly such that you can sling the one loop about three quarters of the way around the object.  Use the standing end to carry out the Verstackle on the loop.  In other words, the standing end forms the coils of the Versatackle.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 08:45:37 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2013, 11:01:29 PM »
As a Versatackle variation, tie just one loop with a long standing end.  A bowline works fine.  Size the loop properly such that you can sling the one loop about three quarters of the way around the object.  Use the standing end to carry out the Verstackle on the loop.  In other words, the standing end forms the coils of the Versatackle.
So you'd have one loop performing double duty on small objects, by lacing through opposite sides.  I like it.  Very simple.
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knot4u

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2013, 11:07:39 PM »
As a Versatackle variation, tie just one loop with a long standing end.  A bowline works fine.  Size the loop properly such that you can sling the one loop about three quarters of the way around the object.  Use the standing end to carry out the Verstackle on the loop.  In other words, the standing end forms the coils of the Versatackle.
So you'd have one loop performing double duty on small objects, by lacing through opposite sides.  I like it.  Very simple.

Yes, it works quite well!

Festy

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2013, 08:52:29 PM »


As a Versatackle variation, tie just one loop with a long standing end.  A bowline works fine.  Size the loop properly such that you can sling the one loop about three quarters of the way around the object.  Use the standing end to carry out the Verstackle on the loop.  In other words, the standing end forms the coils of the Versatackle.

knot4u,

is it possible to show us a diagram or pic of your arrangement please, if you can spare the time?

thank you,
F

knot4u

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2013, 09:06:15 PM »


As a Versatackle variation, tie just one loop with a long standing end.  A bowline works fine.  Size the loop properly such that you can sling the one loop about three quarters of the way around the object.  Use the standing end to carry out the Verstackle on the loop.  In other words, the standing end forms the coils of the Versatackle.

knot4u,

is it possible to show us a diagram or pic of your arrangement please, if you can spare the time?

thank you,
F

If I have the spare time, I will.

Maybe we can get Roo to prepare the diagram for his site...

roo

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Re: Best binder for irregularly shaped bundles and the like
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2013, 03:47:32 AM »

Maybe we can get Roo to prepare the diagram for his site...
Maybe the attached image will suffice.  The actual conditions would be a smaller loop around a small bundle.  The loop knot is not intended to show any particular specimen.

ref:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Versatackle.html
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 04:18:54 AM by roo »
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