Author Topic: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?  (Read 19081 times)

Festy

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Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« on: August 22, 2013, 05:00:25 PM »

Which could be termed the best, in terms of climbing, boating, towing etc..........if indeed either could be?

For instance does the Zeppelin need to be locked for safety? Is the Bowline easier to tie under stressed situations?

Or is there an even better loop out there than either of them?

What say guys?

cheers,
F

roo

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2013, 06:04:04 PM »

Which could be termed the best, in terms of climbing, boating, towing etc..........if indeed either could be?

For instance does the Zeppelin need to be locked for safety? Is the Bowline easier to tie under stressed situations?

Or is there an even better loop out there than either of them?

What say guys?

cheers,
F
In circumstances with supple and/or non-slippery rope with low security requirements, a simple bowline would be faster and easier to tie.

In more demanding conditions, a Zeppelin Loop or a Water Bowline would be better choices and will better handle unusual load configurations, such as having the legs being pulled in opposite directions.  Every rope type will yield differing results as far as overall security and whether you'd need augmented security measures as seen in the Monsoon Bowline or such as the repeated finish seen in a Double Zeppelin Loop.  You'll need to do tests with the rope you're using simulating the motion you're expecting.

Unlike a Bowline or Water Bowline, a Zeppelin Loop requires that an overhand knot be made before threading through something, but since you're near the end of the rope anyway, this shouldn't be a major concern, especially if you know how to roll an overhand knot around with your fingers to different positions.  If you need to make a yards-long loop, it'd probably be more convenient to choose a Bowline or Water Bowline, depending on security requirements.

On the other hand, a Zeppelin Loop tends to be easier to check and adjust (tail length, loop size, etc.) than a Water Bowline.  Both will nicely resist jamming.

I hope that helps.

ref:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotfaq.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bowline.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/monsoonbowline.html

P.S.  Don't forget about hitches if conditions permit.  A Gnat Hitch is very simple and has excellent security.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 11:12:18 PM by roo »
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xarax

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2013, 09:38:04 PM »
   The so-called "Zeppelin loop" is not working like the Zeppelin bend - but this should had been known to you by now, I guess. It is a fake Zeppelin knot, because the only superficial "similarity" it has with the members of the Zeppelin family of knots, the "rope-made hinges", as I like to call them, is its outline, its silhouette. If we could see with our eyes the distribution of the tensile forces inside the rope s strands in each of the two loaded knots, we could had realized the huge difference of the two structures, at an instant. Now we need to "see" with our minds a little bid - or use a thermal camera, which can detect and record the infrared part of the spectrum, radiated by friction turned into thermal radiation. We have a few other eye-knots which are much more "Zeppelin loops" than this fake one (1)(2) - although the Zeppelin bend can be considered as the only pure Zeppelin-like knot. In particular, we can say that this fake Zeppelin is half a Zeppelin and half a Hunter s knot, because the Standing part of the one link is hooked around the other Standing part, just like it happens in the Hunter s bend, but not in the Zeppelin s bend. Now, if you have a mixture of two things, and you really need to name it by the name of the one only of its two ingredients, the most famous, to pretend something, keep calling it " Zeppelin loop ". Who knows, may be after some years it will start to behave like a Zeppelin knot, indeed - by sympathetic magic (3) .   
   Therefore, the misleading label "Zeppelin loop", which implies that :
a,  this loop is similar in structure with the Zeppelin bend, and,
b,  it is THE only loop which is related to the Zeppelin bend,
is a misnomer.
  If you search a little bid in this Forum, you will find enough arguments to convince you about this simple, almost self-evident fact - but you will also find people advocating with a blind zeal ( resembling the zeal of fanatics ) this evil imposter of the genuine Zeppelin family of knots, in each and every instant a newcomer to knotting / victim of the misleading label falls into this trap. It is a classic example of a not-critical knotting myth, which is perpetuated by its believers, because the imposter itself is another secure eye-knot ( as many dozens of other eye-knots based upon (ex)-symmetric interlocked overhand knot bends are ), so the line of parroting does not run the danger to be cut short.
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3908.0
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095.0
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_magic
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 12:31:05 AM by xarax »
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Festy

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2013, 10:35:49 PM »
http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=229971

See the last post on this page, concerning a verbal explanation of tying a TIB Zeppelin Loop.

roo

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2013, 12:08:47 AM »
http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=229971

See the last post on this page, concerning a verbal explanation of tying a TIB Zeppelin[ish] Loop.
There are much simpler and easier, standard on-the-bight loops with good properties:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html

As an aside, I think the Zeppelin Loop is appropriately named, with about the same properties as the bend and an identical knot body, while maintaining major load paths appropriately.  However, you didn't ask about that, so such an issue is off-topic.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 11:49:00 PM by roo »
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xarax

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2013, 08:55:12 AM »
 
  As an aside, I think the ... is appropriately named, with about the same properties as the bend and an identical knot body, while maintaining major load paths appropriately.

  The fact that this evil imposter of the Zeppelin family of knots, the fake so-called "loop" ( which is just another of the dozens and dozens possible end-of-line loops, but it is neither Zeppelin-like, nor bowline-like ) is based on an overhand knot tied on the Standing part, is a disadvantage for yet another reason : After heavy loading, it becomes difficult to untie, in sharp contrast with either the genuine Zeppelin knot, the Zeppelin bend, or the bowline. So much for the "same properties" !  :)   The claims about the "identical knot body" are 100% wrong : 50% of this mistake is due to the fact that the two bodies, when they are loaded, they are not "identical" at all The evil imposter loses the symmetry of the Zeppelin bend, and it is deformed badly. And 50% of the same mistake is due to the fact that, even if they would had looked "similar", as shapes, in some a degree, they would sill be different knots, as structures - just as an midline overhand knot, which is loaded from both ends, is very different from an overhand stopper, which is loaded only from the one.
 
 We meet exactly the same knotting myth, which is parroted / reproduced from the one generation of knot tyers to the next : According to it, knots that look "similar" are also structurally similar ( and, why not, "identical" !  :) ), and this is what is claimed also in the case of the Sheet bend and the bowline. I find it amusing that not even ONE "knot teacher" had not spelled ONE word about the "Sheet bend "bowline" (1) - a knot much more "similar" to the Sheet bend than the bowline, yet so much different from the bowline...
 
  The interested reader should have a look at the bend shown in the attached pictures, which is a genuine Zeppelin-like knot, and not a fake one... In this knot we can see that the Zeppelin-like knots do not utilize the "closed" topology of the two interlinked overhand knots - those two links remain entangled not because of their topology, but because of their geometry. It is because they are attached on the same pair of tails, working as the pivot of a hinge, that forces them to remain close to each other, not because they are hooked to each other. On the contrary, in this hybrid half-Zeppelin / half Hunter s so-misleadingly-called "Zeppelin loop", the two Standing parts remain in place because they encircle each other, and the generated friction forces do not allow them to slip out of the knot s nub - just as it happens with dozens and dozens practical bends based on two interlocked overhand knots.
 
 The difficult-to-be-tied-and-untied so-called "Zeppelin loop" is not a PET eyeknot, it can not be tied and untied in one step, it is not based on a nipping turn that can always be untied very easily, it has only one Zeppelin-like link, it does not remain symmetric under loading, it is not working as a rope-made hinge...yet people are ready to compare it with the bowline ( ! ), as they compare the bowline to the Sheet bend ( without, of course, be able to explain why they always show/view them from different sides... :) ).
 
 
   I do not believe that anything that is said about the huge different of those two altogether different eye-knots, or the huge difference between the genuine Zeppelin knots and the fake hybrid is irrelevant ... What is irrelevant, indeed, is the comparison of the "less-than-useful"(sic) king of the eye-knots, to a deformed ex-Zeppelin knot, and the comparison of the king of end-to-end knots, to a would-like-to-be bowline !
 
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.msg23702#msg23702
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 09:02:28 AM by xarax »
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Sweeney

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2013, 01:02:29 PM »
After heavy loading, it becomes difficult to untie, in sharp contrast with either the genuine Zeppelin knot, the Zeppelin bend, or the bowline.

Interesting comment. Do you have any test data to support this? I have only done informal testing on cord with my body weight and never had a problem untying the knot - I have tried many of the locked bowline variations and found them very secure but generally quite difficult to untie and of course a common (#1010) bowline without a locking mechanism is of limited practical use in very stiff slippery rope .

xarax

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2013, 03:28:08 PM »
 
  Do you have any test data to support this? I have only done informal testing on cord with my body weight and never had a problem untying the knot

  Test data:) Have you ever seen ANY "test data" about how easy or difficult is to untie a knot ? is there an established scientific methodology which can measure some parameters that are related with this procedure ? The "data" can not be just some numbers collected during a not-well-defined procedure ! Can we "measure" the forces that are required to twist and pull a certain collar of a certain bight at the same time ? Here we can not agree if the "front-ness" is intrinsic to the knots or not, and we will agree on this ?
   The interesting thing is that nobody asks test data to support the opposite, that claim the so-called "Zeppelin loop" is easy to untie - because most people are victims of the same myth : The Zeppelin bend is easy to untie, the so-called "Zeppelin loop" looks like the Zeppelin bend, have "about the same properties ( ! ! ) and an identical ( ! ! ! ) knot body "(sic) , so, by deduction, the so-called "Zeppelin loop" is as easy to untie as the Zeppelin bend !  :) Of course, nobody looks at the two loaded knots, to "see" that this overhand knot tied on the Standing part, when loaded by 100% and 50% of the total load, shrinks, locks around the more lightly loaded overhand knot tied at the Tail, and becomes compact and rock solid ! The difference from a genuing Zeppelin bend, where the overhand knots are not loaded by both sides, or from a bowline, where we do not even have an overhand knot tied on the Standing part, is almost self-evident - but myths do not need any evidences, do they ?
   I have tested not only this particular evil imposter, but also ALL the other eye-knots where the nipping structure is an overhand knot tied on the Standing end, and I have always seen the same thing - which should have been expected, of course ! There is no relation whatsoever between the easiness one can untie a bowline or a genuine Zeppelin knot, a "rope made hinge", with what happens in almost all of the dozens and dozens of the eye-knots based on interlinked overhand knots ( the "B" series of bends in Miles. and then some ! ). There are even some such knots which, once tied and loaded heavily enough, they become a dense mass of rope material which simply can not be released without a marlinspike - like the eye-knot based on the Oyster bend, for example.
   Moreover, I have seen that the eye-knots are more difficult to untie even in the cases where we have one only overhand, and even in the cases where this overhand knot is tied on the Tail, not on the Standing part ! In fact, one should be a little lucky to tie an eye-knot where one link is an overhand knot, that will not be difficult to get untied !
   I have tried to explain the "ratcheting" mechanism that accumulates tensile forces within a shrinking convoluted tangle, in the not-so-expected ( by me, at least ...) case of the humble Clove hitch (1). I have tied a number of crossing knot- based eye-knots, where only one overhand knot was tied, and that was tied on the Tail (2), but the easiness of untying remained distinctively inferior from the bowline or from the Zeppelin bend.   
   Then, why people do not acknowledge this simple fact ? Judging only from the superficial appearances, by the "looks", the outline of the ropes, ignoring what is happening inside them, is one obvious reason, of course. The other reason is that they do never load the eye-knots to their strength limits - and this is also responsible for another knotting myth, that the weak point of the bowline is the bight component, which can slip through the nipping turn - so all we have to so to tie a "secure"bowline is to increase the nipping power of the nipping turn ( which is simply impossible, but lets us not discuss this now...), or add more U-turns to the bight component - and all the problems of the bowline will be miraculously resolved at once !
   The truth is that the weak point of the bowline is its main component, the nipping turn, and this weakness is not related to its nipping power, by to its stability. Even if the bight component will not slip through the nipping turn, the later can be forced to open up, and release its grip on the former.
   Knots where the two limbs of a nipping structure are driven within and pulled out of shrinking surrounding openings, and can be squeezed by the cocoon the other rope segments weaved around those openings, are prone to jam or to be difficult to get untied. An overhand knot or a fig.8 knot, especially when it is tied on the Standing part, should always be suspect, and, if possible, it should be avoided. It is not by chance that the bowline and the Zeppelin bend do not jam ! They shrink, they become compact, but they do not accumulate the tensile forces inside them, because the limbs of the nipping structures that penetrate them through the "core" of the nub are not imobilized by the encircling strands of the "mantle "of the nub.       
   My main point in my previous post was not the easiness or not of untying the evil imposter of the genuine Zeppelin loop, but its altogether different structure, which does not use the unique geometry of the Zeppelin bend ! A fake thing is not something that simply is different, it is something that, although it is different, pretends to be "identical"! THAT is what ome people had imagined they discovered in this easy pass-par-tout of eye-knots, in order to stop searching for anything else - and snub everybody Else that dares to present something different. Parroting is more effective when it is a repetition of the same reduced number of myths over and over again, so the quality they do not have is hopefully substituted by mere quantity ! We take the most simple, most symmetric, most beautiful, most unique in its working, most easy to tie, to inspected and to untie bend, and what do we do with this gem ? We shamelessly throw it into box with dozens of dozens faux bijoux - having destroyed its most useful qualities in the mean time : gone is the symmetry, the hinge-like mechanism, the easiness of inspection, the easiness of untying it after heavy loading, to say nothing about the easiness of tying it in the first place...- and, by doing everything unfair to this miracle of nature which was offered to us by the mother KnotLand, we reduce it to a hybrid, which is to the original Zeppelin bend just what the name tells : a hybris.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347.0
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3962.0
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 04:26:31 AM by xarax »
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roo

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2013, 03:54:41 PM »
After heavy loading, it [Zeppelin Loop] becomes difficult to untie, in sharp contrast with either the genuine Zeppelin knot,
This is just plain false.  Have you been tying the wrong knot all this time?
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xarax

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2013, 04:47:06 PM »
  This is just plain false. 
   
   Is it 41:)   
 
  Another disadvantage of the 42  :)  - sorry, the so-called "Zeppelin loop", which for some people is the solution of all the knotting problems of the Universe ( and beyond...), is due to precisely this one-sidedness, this awful ugly lack of symmetry in relation to the genuine Zeppelin knot, the beautiful Zeppelin bend. I have seen that as the "main" first overhand knot, which is tied on the Standing part, is loaded first and more forcefully, it also "closes" and "locks" first, well before the second overhand knot, which is tied on the Tail. Consequently, this second overhand knot can well remain slag, with half of its structure not participating / contributing in the locking mechanism of the knot at all. The most evident result of it is a very tight, compact, rock solid first overhand knot, that has immobilized the eye leg of the Tail without any involvement of the second loose overhand knot, which is locked before / without been able to lock. The interested reader who will load the eye-knot to its limits, will see this discrepancy between the two links, the second one remaining almost absent of the mutual entanglement. It is this lack of "balance" that characterizes even many secure bowlines. where the one, only, of the two links bears most of the strain - one can easily imagine what that will mean for the overall strength of a two links knot, which will depend on half of the available material.
   To release the tightly self-locked main overhand knot, one can push the "higher" collar to the back, and so force some material to be fed into it, and facilitate the untying. However, with the climbing ropes of about 10 - 12.5 mm I use, this was not so easy - and, of course, it had no relation whatsoever.with the easiness of untying a bowline or a genuine Zeppelin knot. I have to reply to the ... comments that I had been "tying the wrong knot all this time"(sic), because I know sooo well the "clever" ways the believers will try to twist my words and conceal the most important things - all this time ! ( 5 Years...). The important thing is not that the fake Zeppelin knot is not so easily untied as the genuine Zeppelin knot or the bowline - even if we have to rely to this indirect trick mentioned to achieve this -  the important thing is that the two links are so differently loaded, so unequally, the initial symmetry of the Zeppelin bend is so badly deformed, that the "imitation"(Fr.)  is a disgrace to the original. Such a one-sided knot will not be able to absorb efficiently the sum of the tensile forces and re-distribute them evenly along as much of its ropelength as possible, so I expect that the ultimate strength of it will be greatly diminished. That means that the not-so-great strength of the original Zeppelin bend will be reduced even more in this evil imposter  - not a good thing for a supposedly safe eye-knot.     
 
    Rien n'est beau que le vrai; le vrai seul est aimable.     
  Il doit regner partout,
et meme dans la fable.

   
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 07:02:12 PM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2013, 08:58:19 AM »
...a very tight, compact, rock solid first overhand knot, that has immobilized the eye leg of the Tail without any involvement of the second loose overhand knot, which is locked before / without been able to lock.
   When we see something with our eyes, we believe it - but that does not mean, of course, that we have explained its existence, which is what our mind wish to "see", with its own eyes. So, why is that so ? Why this happens in the case of the fake Zeppelin knot ( the ugly so-called "Zeppelin loop"), and it does not happen in the genuine Zeppelin knot ( the beautiful Zeppelin bend ) ?
   Elementary, my dear knot tyers. With the start of the loading of the eye-knot, the overhand knot tied on the Standing part, which is pulled by both its limbs,"closes" faster than the overhand knot tied on the Tail, which is pulled by its one limb only. Therefore, at some point, the main overhand knot "locks" around the secondary one, before the later has given the opportunity to do the same around the former. The loss of symmetry of the original Zeppelin bend has grave consequences for its crippled imitator, which people that do not use their mind s eyes can not "see". The original genuine Zeppelin knot works so well because the two links are in such a perfect balance the one in relation to the other, that they are loaded equally, they close around each other at the same time, they lock and they themselves are locked at the same time, and they suffer the strain of the tensile forces in tandem, re-distributing them along the common "pivot" made by the pail of tails. Nothing of the above is happening with the evil imposter of the Zeppelin family of knots - and its ugliness, its tying complexity, its asymmetric dressing very of its final form, are only evidences of a knotting crime committed the moment some thought it would be so easy to kiss a prince, and do not transform it into a frog... 
   
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kd8eeh

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2013, 04:40:54 AM »
If you don't mind that it's not pet, I would recommend a double anglers loop over a zeppelin loop. By comparison, it is harder to untie after a light load, but it is stronger and more secure, easier to tie, and it is tib. As loops go, a bowline and zeppelin loop are not two i would be comparing, since they aren't very similar at all and there is hardly ever a time when one would want to tie a zeppelin loop, given all the easier and better knots one could tie.

roo

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2013, 06:04:37 AM »
If you don't mind that it's not pet, I would recommend a double anglers loop over a zeppelin loop. By comparison, it is harder to untie after a light load, but it is stronger and more secure, easier to tie, and it is tib. As loops go, a bowline and zeppelin loop are not two i would be comparing, since they aren't very similar at all and there is hardly ever a time when one would want to tie a zeppelin loop, given all the easier and better knots one could tie.
In rope work, an angler's loop being hard or impossible to untie would be a significant drawback.  People don't usually want the knot welded into their rope.  The Zeppelin Loop doesn't have this problem, while still being secure.

I also think it's fine to have one loop be used for on-the-bight applications, and another loop being used for end loop applications.  When you try to overlap the two, you end up giving up something in one or the other application.  Let a hammer be a hammer, and a saw be a saw.
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kd8eeh

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2013, 05:43:17 AM »
I haven't tested it myself, but I say a double angler's loop is stronger because the it has shallower turns in the standing part, especially if you redress the knot so the second wrap crosses the first.  Also, seeing as it is a more common knot, i imagine there is more test data out there for the double anglers loop.

As far as roo's point, the double anglers is somewhat easier to untie than a single anglers.  you can leave some slack in the second wrapping and (assuming it isn't loaded enough to pull the slack through) the slack makes an excelant handle.  If you have the supplies, you can also drive a pointy stick through the middle of the knot which should be easier to pull out.  If i were to teach someone one of the two (since even a single knot can be very difficult for some) I would opt for the angler's loop without a moment's hesitation.

NotSure

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Re: Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2013, 09:59:31 PM »
...
For instance does the Zeppelin need to be locked for safety? Is the Bowline easier to tie under stressed situations?

Or is there an even better loop out there than either of them?
...

I prefer a locked slip knot noose, myself. Just use the working end to form a half-hitch lock back over the loop itself (similar to how you half-hitch lock the Handcuff Knot to make it a Fireman's Chair).

When using the Marline Spike Hitch method of tying one, it's
  • extremely quick to tie/untie;
  • easy and FAST to adjust the loop size;
  • memorable under stress and secure (it's a single loop version of the Fireman's Chair);
  • TIB and much more resistant to jamming than other TIB loops (i.e., the Alpine Butterfly comes to mind); and
  • it can be ring loaded and have all 4 lines loaded in any direction (unlike the Bowline, Span loop, or Bowline on a bight)

For a multi loop, I would go with an Alpine Butterfly - BUT ONLY if all the loops were going around the SAME object. (With loading on 3+ loops, I find it doesn't jam hard any more)

For a PET loop, I'm much more partial to the Carrick Loop, but only because it's the easiest to untie. That's the most important factor to me when it's all said and done. But everybody will have different priorities depending on the job at hand, I suppose...