Author Topic: Butterfly vs. Artillery Loop  (Read 5400 times)

zoranz

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Butterfly vs. Artillery Loop
« on: August 12, 2013, 01:29:20 PM »
Advice please!

My boat is connected to coastline (2 links spacing 2 m) with a rope (diametar 10 mm), which in the middle has a buterfly loop with carabiner. The angle between the legs is approximately 120 degrees. But I see that the knot deforms under pressure. The two parallel ropes (in the heart of knot) became crossed. Long time I used the artillery loop and I had no problems. A year ago I devoleped butterfly loop and (because of the opinion of experts: the butterfly is much better than artillery) I changed the loop...
(When I use the hard rope deformation does not come.)

Thx, regards, ZZ

zoranz

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Re: Butterfly vs. Artillery Loop
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2013, 02:03:52 PM »
Here's a view...

Luca

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Re: Butterfly vs. Artillery Loop
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 05:41:27 PM »
Hi zoranz,

I think that any form/distortion takes, the Butterfly is safer than the Artillery: usually the Butterfly is presented with fully splayed standing parts "in the same line",but here it is also presented a version with the standing parts parallel (in practice can be considered as another knot!):

http://daveroot.atspace.cc/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#AlpineButterfly

The situation that you submit  is a kind of middle way,probably the reason because also the knot tends (slightly) to assume a hybrid form under this about 120 degrees loading of the standing parts.
A way to prevent this from happening maybe is to pay attention in doing so, during the execution of the knot, that the two portions of rope that you see they tend to cross,looking at the "rear" view of the knot's nub, they intersect at the maximum level, and that simultaneously the two "collars" around the standing parts are least splayed possible, so that the knot has a more "narrow"and compact shape.In this way, the knot should be (I hope, because I have not experienced in a serious way!) a bit more stable with respect to the way you load it.

                                                                                                            Bye!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 05:45:23 PM by Luca »

alpineer

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Re: Butterfly vs. Artillery Loop
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2013, 02:21:45 AM »
There's no need to be concerned about this deformation zoranz. I you've had no problems using the Artillery Loop I would say use whichever knot you prefer. Have you had any problems using the Butterfly?   
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 02:31:59 AM by alpineer »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Butterfly vs. Artillery Loop
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2013, 07:24:06 AM »
But then, how long is your mooring line?

The photograph suggests that the line is relatively
short, and thus I think that there is no need for
you to tie the knot without ends --which is the
reason d'etre for the butterfly/lineman's loop.

Instead, you could use a better, symmetric knot
such as Ashley's #1408, 1452 or even the carrick
bend
to make such a middle eyeknot --which you
will tie just once, and use many times, yes?!
(There are some symmetric and more stable mid-line
eyeknots, not commonly known, but I don't know if
I've shown them here, and what I'm thinking of
seems a little overly bulky for this application
--where, again, you have access to line ends
for the tying once.)


Cheers,
--dl*
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zoranz

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Re: Butterfly vs. Artillery Loop
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 07:00:02 PM »
-   Thx 75RR. (BTW I like very much your drawings.)
-   Thx Luca. I know for a second variant of BL (paralel legs) but didn't think in that direction (mentally). I shall surely try it in the future. 
-   Thx alpineer, I did not have any problem with butterfly loop; was only little disappointed because of (for my opinion) not well dressed view. But when you (and 75RR too) say it's normal, i shall use it. In harder rope (for other purposes), it looks fine! Probably my new rope will become harder under the influence of sun and (salt) sea, and BL will get better appearance.
(My old rope is now hard, and think as new it was not.)
-   And, thx Dan. Yes, the application is fixed, but 2-3 times a year I make a correction. And I must admit that I do not understand how the bend can be transformed into a loop in the bight. (The length of my rope is 2 * 2 m + 2 * 0.70  (anchor hitch) + 0.80 (butterfly loop) = approximately 6.20 m, diameter = 1 cm.  With a good/precise scheme I could probably arrange loop from the bend, but only at table, at home; never on the coast. Think it's too complicated.)

Regards, ZZ

Luca

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Re: Butterfly vs. Artillery Loop
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 07:59:42 PM »
Hi zoranz,

I know for a second variant of BL (paralel legs) but didn't think in that direction (mentally). I shall surely try it in the future.

I'm sorry, I expressed myself badly :I did not want to propose to use the Butterfly with parallel standing ends, personally I do not like it, and I find it has a tendency to jam.I propose instead a setting of Butterfly that had more likely to remain stable in its form with "splayed"ends,also with the kind of hybrid loading that you showed us;mainly:tie the Butterfly as you usually do,but, looking at what is usually considered to be the rear view of this knot, you can set it so you can see clearly an "x",formed by the two strands of rope that are traversing the knot's nub.If it is not clear ask as well!

                                                                                                               Bye!



Dan_Lehman

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Re: Butterfly vs. Artillery Loop
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 09:14:45 PM »
-   And, thx Dan. Yes, the application is fixed, but 2-3 times a year I make a correction.
And I must admit that I do not understand how the bend can be transformed into a loop in the bight.

The adjustment would not be hard, given the knots
that I suggested --which should be easily loosened
and adjusted in a not difficult way.

"loop in the bight" : well, you won't be doing this
in the sense of tying; but you will end up with the
eye knot as desired, but tied with ends.  And to do
this, form one half of the desired bend-to-become-eye,
then --if it's not clear otherwise-- use a spare rope
to complete the end-2-end knot (loosely),
and with that in place as a guide,
simply withdraw this other piece and follow it
with the long tail from the first half, leaving
the now-formed eye at whatever size is desired
(looks as though you don't need a large eye).
Again, as you will back out one half of the
end-2-end knot joining some spare rope to
your mooring rope, follow it with your long
tail (sort of "tying it backwards", so to speak),
which will thus form the eye part of the knot.

(One can imagine using a separate rope for the
eye part exclusively --a round sling-- and then
tying the mooring line through this sling,
as another way to create the mooring set-up.)


--dl*
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zoranz

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Carrick loop tied with ends
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2013, 02:03:18 PM »
"loop in the bight" : well, you won't be doing this
in the sense of tying; but you will end up with the
eye knot as desired, but tied with ends.

Hi Dan,

I acted according to the instructions with Carrick band and got this (attachment). Is it supposed to get?
Thx once more for your kindness

Regards to all, ZZ
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 11:00:19 PM by zoranz »

zoranz

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Re: Butterfly vs. Artillery Loop
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 01:25:42 PM »
Tie the Butterfly as you usually do, but, looking at what is usually considered to be the rear view of this knot, you can set it so you can see clearly an "x", formed by the two strands of rope that are traversing the knot's nub.


Thx Luca,
 
you mean: dressing like shown on picture by Xarax? Personaly I think it is good solution!
BTW not sure what is front/back (rear) wiew for Butterfly loop/bend. It seems that I used opposite terminology than you  :).

Regards, ZZ
                                                                 

Luca

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Re: Butterfly vs. Artillery Loop
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 10:13:20 PM »
Hi zoranz,

The front / back is how I meant (I base myself only on the most commonly shown side,but as far as I'm concerned the terms could also be exchanged!).
In any case,actually I meant the opposite of the setting you to show, i.e. the "x" is visible in the back,and the two lines of the standing parts instead run perfectly parallel each other in the front view.
At 0:30 of the first video below(I think is a video by alpineer) this "x"is clearly visible,in the second video the "x" is not so visible, but to the knot is given a general"narrow" setting similar to how I meant((but if you feel comfortable with the solution that you show above, I personally do not find nothing to object to, and in fact I would have no problems even if the knot assumes the appearance that you show in your first post).
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeKLU_6NLv4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QC_RSdnbD8

                                                                                                            Bye!
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 10:40:25 PM by Luca »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Carrick loop tied with ends
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2013, 06:31:57 AM »
"loop in the bight" : well, you won't be doing this
in the sense of tying; but you will end up with the
eye knot as desired, but tied with ends.

Hi Dan,

I acted according to the instructions with Carrick band and got this (attachment).
Is it supposed to get?

Yes, that is right.

You could also tie two bowlines, where their eyes
are small (I should think you'd want this), and their
tails lead one into the other --same part, i.e. (so, it
would be tying one knot and then leading its tail
into tying the 2nd knot in reverse).  Now, this
two-knots solution means that you have two
eyes to attach to.


--dl*
====