Author Topic: Preferred view of the bowline.  (Read 4086 times)

xarax

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Preferred view of the bowline.
« on: August 13, 2013, 02:22:19 PM »
   I believe that the issue of if we should have one single "preferred" view of the bowline, and use this view when we are forced to use one view only, is an issue of practical importance - because it is not related only with the presentation of the bowline, but also with its main mental image, which is used by teachers and books to show to the newcomers in the field of practical knotting how the bowline works as a knot, and how it can be tied.
   There are three main ways one can follow considering this issue, and three different opinions he can have : 
   
   A. We should not distinguish the many possible views of the bowline, according to which is more useful than the other, in any way, ever. All views are equivalently useful, and equivalently needed - no single view can provide all the necessary details of the bowline. So, we should never show one only view, whichever this would be.
   B. We should distinguish the many possible views of the bowline, according to which is more "useful" than the other, according to precise criteria we will chose. Let us label, for the time being, the most useful view as the "preferred" view.
   C. We should not consider that we should prefer one certain view according to which is more "useful" than the others. We should just continue to use as "preferred" view the most commonly used view till now, because we have more to lose than to gain if we start using another single view in place of the view we have been accustomed to use till now, and which corresponds to the tying method with which we are accustomed to tie the bowline till now.

   If we accept the need for one "preferred" view, we have three options :
1. We should use as the "preferred" view, the most "detailed" view. We should define precisely what we mean by "detailed" .
2. We should use as the "preferred" view the view that, conventionally, was called as such -although we do not know why this convention has happened to be established in the first place.
3. We should use as the "preferred" view the view that, conveniently, is called as such, because it is related to the most commonly used tying methods, and it presents the view that most knot tyers see when they tie the bowline following one of those methods - although we do not know why those tying methods are used by most knot tyers much more than other possible ones, which are related to other possible views.

   Members that believe this branching of the possible opinions one can have in this issue is not comprehensive enough, is kindly requested to modify it, or present an altogether new one.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 05:16:49 PM by xarax »
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SS369

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Re: Preferred view of the bowline.
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2013, 11:15:51 PM »
I believe that if a member is descriptive and does it well enough, then there will be no need for a label of a viewpoint of the knot.
Then if a discussion ensues, the contributors can establish the nomenclature within the confines or dictates of the discussion.

Takes the "preferred" onus out of it.

Of course a picture will most assuredly help.

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xarax

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Re: Preferred view of the bowline.
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2013, 02:50:25 AM »
I believe that if a member is descriptive and does it well enough, then there will be no need for a label of a viewpoint of the knot.

  I have tried to avoid any discussion about how a chosen view should be named, because this is of secondary importance only. Also, I do not believe the question about which would be a proper name for such a view can resolved, before we decide if there are some well defined criteria, or not, according to which this view can be evaluated, and can be compared to other views. If we do not agree on some criteria, everybody would prefer a different view from anybody else, so, even if we decide we need a one view, we would not be able to agree which this one view should be. 
   Now, if you think that there is no point to prefer one particular view from any one else, because all well presented descriptive views are equivalently useful, you choose option A.
   If the "preferred" label sounds a little vague to view, you can call this one view by any other  name / label would be able to denote what it would be : The ONE view that we will chose, if, for whatever reason, we have to present ONE only view, and not two or even more views simultaneously. Have you any suggestion for any other name ?

   
Of course a picture will most assuredly help.

   Which picture ? A picture taken from which side ? If I have to present a bwline with ONE picture, what picture should I prefer ? Or it does not matter, if this picture is descriptive well enough ?
   This is not an academic question ! I have to take pictures of a number of secure bowlines - which views should I prefer ? And if I can use ONE only picture, which one of the many possible views should I chose ?

« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 02:52:10 AM by xarax »
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SS369

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Re: Preferred view of the bowline.
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 03:36:08 AM »
Quote
The ONE view that we will chose, if, for whatever reason, we have to present ONE only view, and not two or even more views simultaneously. Have you any suggestion for any other name ?

One picture that depicts enough information, just call it by the knot name, not a viewpoint name. Then you can say "other side" to refer to the other side.

   
Quote
And if I can use ONE only picture, which one of the many possible views should I chose ?

The side that best offers the best view of what you are trying to communicate or study.

Got to keep it simple.  ;D

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xarax

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Re: Preferred view of the bowline.
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2013, 04:44:30 AM »
The side that best offers the best view of what you are trying to communicate or study.

   I want to try to communicate or study the bowline. So, in the case of the bowline, which is this view ?  :)

One picture that depicts enough information, just call it by the knot name, not a viewpoint name. Then you can say "other side" to refer to the other side.

  I was not asking about which is the name of this view. I was asking about which one is this view.
  If the picture of this side depicts enough information, that means that the "other side" depicts not enough information, i.e. it does not depict enough information ? Then, why should I present it in the first place ? 

It seems that simplicity lies in simplicity itself !  :) 

« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 04:45:09 AM by xarax »
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alanleeknots

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Re: Preferred view of the bowline.
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 06:22:16 AM »
                 妙

James Petersen

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Re: Preferred view of the bowline.
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 08:38:09 AM »
圖片也可以撒謊  ::)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 08:39:39 AM by James Petersen »

xarax

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Re: Preferred view of the bowline.
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 09:30:40 AM »
   Gentlemen, it s all Chinese to me !  :)
   At some point, I thought that, if the preferred view of the bowline (and the corresponding tying methods that utilize this particular view ) we see in the Western world ( by searching Google Images, for example ) is only a matter of a self-reproducing convention ( which is surviving because of students reading old books and becoming teachers themselves, who then write new books and teach to others what they themselves had learned ), the situation in other civilizations might be different. However, searching  for this would require an expertise on subjects about which I have no idea whatsoever...
   Are those hieroglyphics-to-me the way "bowline" is named and written in other languages ? Can any member provide some web links where we can see how the bowline is traditionally shown in other parts of the World, less influenced by the Western civilization ? I can not even cut & paste the words, to Google them...
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James Petersen

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Re: Preferred view of the bowline.
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2013, 09:43:19 AM »
Rough translation:

no picture, no truth

exquisite/excellent/good

pictures can also lie

X1

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Re: Preferred view of the bowline.
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2013, 10:17:48 AM »
   Why I can not Cut & Paste the word and search for it in Google ? It seems that there is some option in my browser I have not checked, but I do know which...
  (  I do not know why the human brain prefers to store information about objects mainly in mental images, or memories of haptic perceptions, and not sequences of logical steps, like " this part is such, because it has this function in relation to that part, so the only way it can be is this, therefore the only way I can manipulate it, is that...". A computer can store a sequence of orders related to each other through if-then relations using so less space in memory than it needs to store an image, even a simplified 2D one - why the human mind is so different ? )

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Preferred view of the bowline.
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2013, 09:38:00 PM »
I have a clear idea of how I prefer to tie a bowline,
and I expect to present images of the knot as it
will be seen by the tyer using this method.  All
of this I've said a few times previously.

IMO, the quick-tie method (where the dominant hand,
holding the tail, casts the nipping loop into the SPart with a
quick turn) that is traditionally given is wrong-side-up-ward
(perhaps for the sake of yielding the traditionally presented
perspective!?).

So, I prefer --strongly-- a change to this; at the
very least, I urge the offering of this opposite
perspective for students learning the knot, as
well as those already familiar with it.  We might
gain confirmation of the benefit of one method.


--dl*
====

xarax

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Re: Preferred view of the bowline.
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2013, 11:22:56 PM »
I have a clear idea of how I prefer to tie a bowline, and I expect to present images of the knot as it will be seen by the tyer using this method.

  I do not believe that this is a strong argument in favour of any particular view, either of the conventionally most used one, by the "Traditionalists", or of the "other" one, by the "Radicals"... In fact, it may be considered as undermining the value of the original idea, that the bowline should be shown not as it happens to be tied by the one or the other individual ( due to their different experiences, dexterities, or ways to perceive and memorize complex 3D objects by using 2D / flattened simplified images of them ), but as it would be more convenient to be shown, if the purpose of the representation is to show the geometric and structural characteristics of this knot in the "best" ( the most detail revealing ) way.

   Of course, we should not underestimate the educational value of every picture, itself worth of a thousand words.... Shape matters, because very often it does not remain a "contour", only, of a real object, an abstraction that refers to it, but it plays the very important role of a mental image as well - a very powerful thing ! We should never underestimate the power of an established shape, which can serve as a symbol, in the service of a good and/or an evil cause.

...the quick-tie method ...
   

   There is no such thing as "the" quick tying method ! Moreover, the well known quick tying method starting from a slip knot does not involve either the "one" or the "other" view  ! Nor does the super-quick tying methods that are able to form the bowline in mid air, where the segments of the rope cab be arranged and entangled in space faster than they can fall...

  We might gain confirmation of the benefit of one method.

 Two classes of boy scouts, who had never seen a bowline in their lives - two teachers that will teach them two different methods, each one involving the opposite "front" view from the other - and an IGKT committee posing the final examinations after, say two weeks of intense brain-washing !  :) That would be very interesting, indeed !  :)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 11:26:00 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.