Essential Knots?

[drjbrennan]

This week I have mostly been using,

Bowline- pulling tree roots out
Timber hitch- on big lumps of concrete
Constrictor- on bin bags
Packers knot- on piles of books
Zeppelin bend- on my keys
Simple Simon over- joining ropes to pull out concrete
Portuguese sennit- making bracelet
Stevedores knot- on conkers
Jug sling- on my water bottle
Marlinespike hitch- on thin cord.

I nearly had to go look up the Icicle hitch, for pulling up tree roots, but the constrictor did the job.

[walrus]

Ey up!.

You know what , people....its a refreshing change to see that someone takes care to maintain an interest in the essentials......for years I believed it was just meholding on to daft notions of what I learned in pre-sea school....

I reckon I,ve got to the stage, where I am just beginning to recognise the fact that , "I had forgotten that I,d already forgotten"
But, on topic, it still amazes me to get aboard some ship and find that your deckies are completely lost at basic rope skills.  Sadly, it seems often like, if theres no loadbinder , webstrap or Tirfor (comealong) at hand, then theyre sunk;  heaving lines fall off; no-one can rig stages or bosuns chairs; and forget all about old time gangway rigging. Management ops manuals and working practises criteria, have kicked into touch any ideas or ever using a extempore rig, for lifting anything!

These people are not stupid, they just aint been trained in seamans ways, by seamen. Please dont take that as a blanket condemnation of nautical education, its not meant to be ( and I once,briefly,  used to be a Nautical Science teacher.)

The most commonly seen examples of ropeskill, would seem to involve enormous amounts of round turns , a single half-hitch and a very large dollop of that ,awfully invasive , duct tape.  My old seamanship teacher would turn in his grave.

I do what I can , to fetch ,em up to scratch.....mostly by leaving a few examples laying around and, sure enough, they,ll always get around to asking....and then doing.   And, in short order, theres an email from the owners, kicking up stink about the invoices for all this new rope!   Happy days.

I would be very happy, that the lads could  set, bowline, sheetbent, clove, rt and two halfs, constrictor.

Rant over,people,  you have the floor.

Sithee!

Walrus

[KnotNow!]

Sorry Dan, Alice can stand in one spot and haul the bight to be tucked.. pullling most to the slack. She can then take a pace or two and haul in some feet or if needs be some hundreds of feet and take another half hitch...  why would the bight need to have the hitch at the bight end?  It isn't rocket science.. we do this all the time.  She can do this to keep me from driving over the slack and still never messabout with either end.   Ain't kilt her yet.  Who said the bight needed to be half hitched at or near the tip of the bight?  We do this poop all the time. She shuffles to the left, she shuffles to the right. but we don't call it "balling the jack".  The whole idea is to keep me from driving over the slack or running over my sweet Alice.... and you know what a messs that makes?  Please,  just know that we do this task with this knot and that if you can not see it then please visit us and haul in some wood (we need the help).  Golly, you think I need to lie about my day to day life?  So the sheepshank has no use and you can "haul away Dan".  Well I won't go there as I have so much respect for you and your posts and mail.  I'll tell you what:  Get your car.  Get a log.  Get your life mate.  Put garbage cans or old buckets to limit the car travel.  Haul away to the posted barrier and  then stop.  Back up and have the "mate" take up slack (if you want to teach Alice a second knot you are at great risk) and "haul away Dan".  Then back up and have the mate overhaul the line (sheepshank or other) and you can haul away again.  I poop you not, this is what we do.  Now, you and I can do this faster and with less effort... but this is my Alice and if you have taught your significant other 10 other knots then God bless you.  Sorry to have made a fuss but this is how we move wood (and many other things).  You should see me on the roof, Alice at the belay and me on the Spanish Bowline.  Walk in my clogs and then ask me..

[squarerigger]

Hi Walrus,

You are absolutely right about the sailors!  The sailors I have trained know to use the right knot in the right place, but when I travel on other people's vessels - boy, howdy!  The skipper's response is usually "I haven't found a use for more than one knot - a bowline - I can do anything with it" to which comment I usually throw all kinds of knots all over the ship (stopped clove hitch, buntline hitch, RT + 2HH, cleat hitch, pile hitch, constrictor, bowline on a bight, jug sling, rosendahl bend, fisherman's knot, anchor bend, rolling hitch, etc.) and wait for his crew to ask him how come it works so much better Lindsey's way?  Passive aggressive response I guess...

Lindsey
PS - Dan - how is that list for sailors to use ?  I use more but not on every trip...

[Dan_Lehman]

Sorry Dan, Alice can stand in one spot and haul the bight to be tucked.. pullling most to the slack.
She can then take a pace or two and haul in some feet or if needs be some hundreds of feet and
take another half hitch...  why would the bight need to have the hitch at the bight end?

The bight doesn't need to have the hitch at the end when finished, but as the ends
of the rope aren't available the hitch must pass around the bight end en route to
wherever it ends up--and I don't see how this is efficiently done?!  --and with so
much rope to haul through that hitch.  Perhaps you can explain?

Please,  just know that we do this task with this knot and that if
you can not see it then please visit us and haul in some wood

While that would be fun, no doubt, and helpful (once I got *trained*),
it's an expensive (time, effort, $) way to learning a knot use.

Golly, you think I need to lie about my day to day life?

No, but my imagination and some fiddling with rope has helped me only
so far to figure out how Alice gets on making a Sheepshank under the
circumstances you lay out.  Really, who reading this can figure how to
quickly haul so much rope and then cast a Sheepshank in it such that
most of the remaining in-tension (upon hauling) line is available (i.e.,
so that the half-hitches/turns of the Sheepshank are close together,
with hugely long bight ends (or one long/short).  You'd have to be hauling
the bight through one hitch to begin, then maybe cast the hauling side's
hitch over a small bight remaining.  I just don't see how this works well.
(And suggest that the silence from others is because they're not taking
such an interest in this item.)

One could hitch bights of the slack bight (there would thus be double
bight-ends hitched--2 loops nipped), and make interlocked loops
with a Sheepshank form; but there is a simpler way ... .

Rather, the most efficient method I'd say is to haul away w/o concern
for any knot, then form a bight in the log side and tie a Lapp Bend
with the hauling side--which makes it a Slipped Lapp Bend.  This not only
is perhaps optimally time-material-/effort-efficient, but unties quickly
by pulling on both ends.  (There are other similar forms one can make
with a turn or few extra; and the Sheet Bend w/bight could similarly
be formed, doubling either half of that knot (bight or hitch part).)
(NB:  The Lapp Bend release more easily than the similar becket hitch
one might tie if first making an eye in the to-the-log side.)

--dl*
====
[ed. to replace "Eskimo Bwl" with "Lapp Bend", & clarify "NB"]

[squarerigger]

Hi Dan,

Try to think of this as pulling in three times the length of what you make into a sheepshank?  If Roy travels ten feet forward and then backs up by ten feet, the log has moved ten feet forward.  Alice makes a S/S three feet long with her line passed to (Roy) and fro (Alice) making two bighted pieces, the extra one foot taken up in the hitches slipped over each end.  Roy drives forward another ten feet and backs up again.  Now the log has moved twenty feet.  Now Alice has twenty feet of line to make into a six foot S/S.  The one part of this that I like is that it is easy to make and break.  There are obviously not that many straight line distances involved in forestry, otherwise a straight pull would be all it would take.  Why, with the unloaded part of the S/S you could even just pull that out each time and not have to re-make the half hitches!  And so it goes...

Lindsey

[KnotNow!]

Hi Lindsey;
  You can come haul wood with us any day!  Yes!  Now we all have a documented use for the SS.  A day of woods work and anyone can see why most logging and woods work in the Pacific North West is "clear cut" and some form of "high line" for the removal.  What Alice and I do is "selective cutting" so standing trees are in the way for every job.  Dead or deformed trees are what we are taking.  Cheers

[Dan_Lehman]

Lindsey, you might want to try drawing a simple model to illustrate what
you are saying--and you'll quickly see (I hope) that it doesn't make sense!

1) Truck & log are initially well removed (the "hundred feet" bit), so there's
 not any back'n'forth between driver & log tender that's at all efficient.

2) The Sheepshank, as remarked by Roy, doesn't assume the full length
implied by the hauled slack--else it would quickly run afoul of the re-directing
block Roy mentioned in one msg. (a long structure's leading end too soon
abutting the block); also, though the Sheepshank has a triple-line *center*,
10' of slack in a regular S. tranlates to a FIVE-foot long structure, not 3'
(picture the 10' as a bight perpendicular to the newly hauled-straight line;
this 5'-long bight then flops forward to get it's leading tip hitched, and that's
a 5'-long structure, thus).  (In terms of a hundred feet, we can ignore the
minor amount consumed in the half-hitch nip.)

3)

The one part of this I like is that it is easy to make ...

NOT SO FAST:
you've misrepresented the making; I don't see it so easy at all, though it's
not a bear, still, you have a pile of say 80' feet of, what, 5/8" log-hauling line
(it's definitely not clothesline, and maybe thicker than this--Roy?), and you
have to put half-hitches over something, and you want to then reduce the
span between those Sheepshank ending hitches to a minimum so as to
have maximum haul distance (at at least the final haul, anyway--earlier
ones might be limited by the drive length so it wouldn't matter).  In any
case, Alice isn't supposed to be jogging 50' with the rope to make the
other end of the structure, but does it all in place.

4)

With the unloaded part of the S/S you could even just pull that out
each time and not have to re-make the half-hitches!

Here, again, I suggest you actually try to do what you write is possible!
The entire S/s is loaded or not, and if one hauls in more slack, one must
undo the leading (truck-side) hitch--that will be hauled down immediately.
(And if the other hitch is in place, then the hauling will be through that
hitch, which doesn't seem so efficient.  But, then, yeah, one could haul
away through the log-side hitch the next amount of slack (making a long
bight end beyond), and then re-cast the leading hitch over the mostly
unaffected leading bight.

5) I assume that when Roy is in back-up mode, Alice needs to be pretty
smartly hauling away--and so not carefully pulling rope through a hitch
as a partial formation of the structure!?
.:.  Just picture yourself with the log end and hauling end of the line
and a big pile of slack, and how you make that into a Sheepshank:
I don't see this as other than a not-so-easy task, other than by the
bight-of-bights tactic I mentioned.  (But it IS easy to, with any amount
of slack--as it's irrelevant as long as there's just a little to finish the knot--
to tie a slipped Lapp Bend, most efficiently!  And I find that both more
secure (stable!) in tension & out, and quicker to tie/untie.

--dl*
====

[Willeke]

Dan,
I think it is time to say that this is the way that works best for Roy and Alice. It might not be the best way, it might not be the way you would use. But it is the way they work and that is reported and recorded now.

You can insist there is a better way, but if Alice and Roy are pleased with the way they work now, why even try to change their working system.

Willeke

[squarerigger]

Hi Dan,

Yay what Willeke said!  Here is a scan of a simple drawing - you may be right about blocks, but the principle is the same, whether or not the line goes arouind a corner.  As Willeke said, if it works for Roy, why knock it?

Lindsey

[Dan_Lehman]

Dan,
I think it is time to say that this is the way that works best for Roy and Alice

Well, really, Willeke, what do you mean "it is time"?  There hasn't been a answer to exactly
how the Sheepshank with massive line comes to be formed; are you against education?
And that points to "... the way"--what I'm seeking to learn.  Has anyonElse actually tried
to make a Sheepshank with a pile of line, and such that the Half-hitch nips are close
together?!  Lindsey has offered some descriptions that don't wash, so I don't see a
successful effort there.

Consider Lindsey's assertion "Why, with the unloaded part of the S/S you could even
just pull that out each time and not have to re-make the half hitches!":  that makes
absolutely no sense to me; how about to others?  The line to be hauled--from the
backing-up vehicle, i.e.--runs into that side's HH and then the continuation from
the HH runs into the opp. HH (log side) to be nipped:  how can one not re-make (undo)
this HH and yet haul line?

There is no need to be defensive on a quest for information; if my understanding is
wrong then please simply show me where/how, but don't throw in the towel based
on some sort of msg.-quota (Ooops, 10th msg. on topic, move along, please!).
I've not merely said something like "I don't agree" and left it at that; I've tried quite
carefully to illustrate my understanding in hopes of clarification, and have given
my criticisms with detail so others have something to work with.

But it is the way they work and that is reported and recorded now.

And can you duplicate their action by the report so far?  (You've just hauled 50' of
line out of a backing-up vehicle's way, casting it to your side; now, make a S/s--
where to you cast that first Half-hitch, please?  And then the 2nd?)

if Alice and Roy are pleased with the way they work now,
 why even try to change their working system.

That should be an easy question to answer!  Isn't part of the point of this
forum to share ideas and learn, maybe getting improvements to methods &
structures?  Shouldn't I care enough to offer something that is a Better Mousetrap?

Here is a scan of a simple drawing

Unfortunately, not for me--rather, "An appropriate representation of the requested
resource /sm/index.php could not be found on this server." results.

But, maybe I've come to see it:  the lots-of-line S/s has one of its three
parallel parts WAY long & slack--the hundred feet part?  In this case, I think
it is even beneficial re stability for the Half-hitch nips to be close together,
even abutting, as the leg from each bight that leads into the 100' slack part
will go away from the HH such as to turn it towards capsizing.  So, one folds
one side into a bight, casts a HH with the opp. side around it, then forms
a bight in this opp. side's continuing end to be nipped by a HH from the first side,
with no concern of pulling the three parallel parts out taut within the structure.
Is that it?

But that is still more tying relative to forming a (log-side) bight and
bringing the opp. side (hauled-in) line around to tuck a bight through the
1st bight's tip to form a Lapp Bend, yes?  --about half the maneuvering.
Give Alice a chance on this, okay.  Poor gal, how'd she get snookered
out of driving the truck, anyway?   

--dl*
====

[KnotNow!]

Hi Dan and All,
  How did Alice get snookered into living in a rain forest in the first place?
  I'll be happy to have the thread die for the while... and next time we pull some wood I'll take photos and you'll can decide from that.  Of course most of my neighbors have wood in the shed and mine is still on the stump.  I'll also say that most of them are not trying to keep the land parklike and pull only the culls.  Not one of them can tie any knots except for shoes.  It is much similar to the web.  Cut and use what you can.  Be a good steward of the site.  Or just go for the "clear cut".
   Dan, I have such respect for you and the work you have sent me via snail, your posts and contributions to the snail KN and KM and I just think that on this topic... I'll send you some string knotted as we do or something....  Let us drop the thread for a time.  I use a SS.  I use it in several aplications.  I don't own a boat.  The SS has aplications outside of my camp or it would not have survived.   Good night to all and to all a good night.

[Willeke]

No comment!

Willeke

[Dan_Lehman]

It occurs to me that another in-the-bight knot that could be used to put slack
aside was shown or suggested by Znex in "The Wave Loop" thread--to wit:



With the lower end of the black line say going to the log, and the lower right
to the truck, the upper ends would be part of the slack bight of rope hauled
in.  Loading the structure having sufficient looseness will yield the typical
Carrick bend with some extra parts (essentially a twin-eyed mid-line loopknot).

Hi Dan and All,
  How did Alice get snookered into living in a rain forest in the first place?

--that's a knot of another nature of your handicraft!  >>    <<  (:

I'll be happy to have the thread die for the while... and next time we pull some wood I'll take photos
 and you'll can decide from that.   ...     Dan, I have such respect for you and the work you have sent me
 via snail, your posts and contributions to the snail KN and KM and I just think that on this topic...
I'll send you some string knotted as we do or something....  Let us drop the thread for a time.  I use a SS.

I'm not happy with how this discussion is going:  we have language and the means
to communicate with it, and even a well-thumbed common reference at hand; why
not put that all to use?  Somehow I'm being much misread or unread, over such a simple
and should-be-expected circumstance of asking for instruction in tying a knot--HERE, IGKT Forum!!

Now, firstly, I am NOT accusing you of lying (!!); I believe that you employ the S/s--check.
But my acquaintance with this knotted structure leaves me puzzled as to HOW one
employs it to serve that task you describe; i.p., I cannot conceive of an obvious way
to tie a S/s in a large amount (50-100'?) of (thick--3/4"?  you didn't say) rope, very
expediently.

You've guided me to seeing that taking a large amount of rope into a S/s need not
have a large span (roughly half the amount) between HHs--rather, the hitch parts can
be close, and large slack in bights.  Okay; Ashley's #2432 sort of shows this.

But to TIE such an S/s, the hitches must get around the bights whose length is then
pulled through--doesn't seem so quick/easy.  I know of Ashley's tying methods
in #1152 (working at each bight end with a hitch) & #1162 (making a sort of Clove &
a Half (3 HHs) and then pulling the sides of the center loop out through the side
ones); neither seems an easy task with a lot of rope.  (In the 1162 method, the center
loop would be huge with the slack, and although one could pull through just a little of
it as nipped bights, with only 1 leg of these bights being tensioned, the S/s would be
prone to capsizing & spilling--have seen this at least with some rope in hand.  One
could pull in bights from each side and then take make 2nd bights with the unnipped
legs into the opp. hitches and get stability--but this is an obese S/s!)

So, I'm not sure what a photo could show me.  If it's the tied knot, can't that as well
be indicated by reference to Ashley images?  --"just like #nnnn, but with ..." or something?
It really shouldn't take many words to say how it's tied--more than another's "no comment",
of course, but that wasn't discussion.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

AND, in the spirit of exchange, have you given the quickly tied (Slipped) Lapp Bend a go?
--can't see how that can be beat, unless somehow it can jam in your particular stuff
I tried it in 8mm old marine cord that was proving pretty frictive and uncooperative
when it came to untying simple things, and put my body weight and some bouncing
on it; it untied nicely, by pulling on the two ends.

Cheers, and may the snow hold off a while longer--enjoy autumn a while
(even in our right-side/eastern mountains, we'll likely get colors circa
last week of October, first of November (elevations <2000', mostly, but
for Blue Ridge (up to 3400'))!

 

[bridog]

I suppose I can put forth my interpretation regarding the sheepshank situation as so described, and either cause more confusion or clarification...

The way I see it, KnotNow! isn't starting with a thousand foot slack in the lines, but rather is starting with the line fairly close to the length of the haul.  This of course is easy to arrange as he's apparently the one either laying in at the timber hitch end or at the tow point, and he can throw down a knot in a bight that still gets the job done without having to teach the assistant any further knots.

Starting thusly with a mostly free-of-slack line, on a ten foot pull you're only getting ten feet of slack, and then it's easy to throw in the half hitches over the bights because the separation between bight ends isn't that great.  Conveniently, for most hauling line, the next ten foot drag should put the rope in enough tension that when it is slacked, the sheepshank won't fall apart.

If the hitches are thusly close together, all the slack is pulled in on the hitch, and you're not going to accidentally pass the hitch over the bights as you pull in the slack --- in fact, as the `ears' get longer, and you have more spare line laying on the ground, it seems like you're less likely to make a mistake since the hitch is trapped there and can't possibly pass the bight --- so you take in all the slack on one side, reach over, and pass that slack out to the bight.  On the next cycle, pull the slack in through the other hitch, and then pass it out to the other bight.

You could keep the spare line balanced, if desired, in this way, but then you'd have a great length to pull through to undo the hitches.  If you keep the `ears' to a reasonable length, however, and can pretty much guarantee no foul play of the hitches-in-slack with the bight ends, then you could pass the slack all to one side if you wish.  If you did that, you could arrange it so the longer bight is closer to the short end of the rope (at the end of the pull); the hitch near the short bight will be easy to cast off, and once you have that it's ten feet or less to the end of the rope, and that allows you to remove the hitch from the long end.