Author Topic: Essential Knots?  (Read 45206 times)

DerekSmith

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2006, 05:21:52 PM »
Hi Dan and All,
  How did Alice get snookered into living in a rain forest in the first place?
  I'll be happy to have the thread die for the while... and next time we pull some wood I'll take photos and you'll can decide from that.  Of course most of my neighbors have wood in the shed and mine is still on the stump.  I'll also say that most of them are not trying to keep the land parklike and pull only the culls.  Not one of them can tie any knots except for shoes.  It is much similar to the web.  Cut and use what you can.  Be a good steward of the site.  Or just go for the "clear cut".
   Dan, I have such respect for you and the work you have sent me via snail, your posts and contributions to the snail KN and KM and I just think that on this topic... I'll send you some string knotted as we do or something....  Let us drop the thread for a time.  I use a SS.  I use it in several aplications.  I don't own a boat.  The SS has aplications outside of my camp or it would not have survived.   Good night to all and to all a good night.

With all due respect to Roy and Alice, they do what they do and are happy with it and it is not for us to think we can or should tell them how to run their lives.

However, the thought of hauling lumber with a long rope and an SUV and one 'mate', is an alluring challenge.  "If I Were Alice"

If "I were Alice", how would I approach the problem of taking up that slack but with the least amount of work?  So there's the challenge - If you were Alice how would you do it?  What combination of knots and ropecraft would you use ?

DerekSmith

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2006, 05:47:43 PM »
My first crack at "If I Were Alice"

If I were Alice, I would wait for the SUV to back up the first time and then pull a bight of towline round the tow hitch.  If the driver had backed up 10ft, then I should be able to pull a bight of line ca 5ft long alongside the main tow line.  I would then grab the main line ca 6 inches back from the end of the bight, twist it and slip the loop over the bight to form a half hitch.  I would then steady the hitch while the driver took up slack, then walk back  with the SUV as its tows the log another 10ft.  When the driver relaxes the tension, I would flick off the half hitch and as the driver reversed, I would pull the bight to take up the new slack, walking back 5 ft as the SUV reversed 10 ft.  Then I would throw on a new half hitch and steady the line while the driver takes up slack again - and so the process goes.

As the log is towed out I would be slowly walking towards the log and the rope from SUV to log would  eventually have all been trippled.  I would have walked the 30 ft to the log and the log will have moved 60 ft towards me.  Then I guess it is a case of chuck 60ft of rope into the back of the SUV, tie on again for a 10ft pull, then repeat the bight technique until the log was only 10ft from the SUV for the last pull.

Job Jobbed.
Derek

DerekSmith

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2006, 06:00:05 PM »
"If I were Alice",

I would find a tree handily close to the SUV with a stump of a branch at a handy working height, or the trunk of a small tree.  The rope from the log would be fed around the tow hitch and to the branch or the tree.  I would wrap the line three or four times around the branch (small tree) and stand on the end.  When the SUV then drove 10ft forward, the log would be hauled forward 20ft due to the pulley affect of the line going round the tow hitch.

The driver backs up and I pull in the 20ft of line, then take a new set of turns around the branch (tree) and again stand on the end while the SUV makes another 10ft pull (20ft of tree pull).  The tree has now moved 40 ft forward and I haven't walked an inch.  Three more reverses and taking in the slack, then rebracing and - Job Jobbed.

Derek

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2006, 02:31:50 AM »
With all due respect to Roy and Alice, they do what they do and are happy with it and it is not for us to think we can or should tell them how to run their lives.

And by what perverted reading did you come to think anyone was?
It really annoys me how a simple quest for information has been
so strained & difficult!  No one yet has put forward an explanation
of how the S/s can be comfortably employed as described, and yet
all are happy to turn away as though they understand (or don't care to)!
E.g., Lindsey's sketched understanding's "etc. etc." neglects both that
the tying isn't so simple or stationary as implied by Roy, and that his
plan quickly runs out of space with its enlarging S/s.

And now YOU come with ...

Quote from: DerekSmith link=topic=452.msg3949#msg3949date=1159634863
If I were Alice, I would wait for the SUV to back up the first time and then pull a bight of towline round the tow hitch.

Here you inject a new condition on the situation:  a special nature
to the truck-hitch point such that a bight can be pulled around it.

Quote
If the driver had backed up 10ft, then I should be able to pull a bight of line ca 5ft long alongside the main tow line.

I'm with you on the amount of bight, but in the case of hauling perpendicular by use
of a re-direction block (road is perp. to line of tension to the harvested log), you here
require some extra consumption of the limited drive distance to be able to extend the
bight along the line (else you must go around the block and down towards log).  Also,
it is best that the slack is pulled AS the truck retreats, to prevent it from being overridden.

Quote
  I would then ... slip the loop over the bight to form a half hitch.

So, like one end of a sheepshank.

Quote
  I would then... walk back with the SUV as its tows the log another 10ft.  When the driver relaxes the tension,
I would flick off the half hitch and as the driver reversed, I would pull the bight to take up the new slack,
walking back 5 ft as the SUV reversed 10 ft.  Then I would throw on a new half hitch ...

Huh?!  This is quite a "throw", as the bight lengthens by half the retreat of the truck,
so if it backs up 10' and you only 5', you are at the TRUCK end, and the bight end
(if pulled away) will be 10' away from there.  (On first bight forming etc., you have a
tripled section (tensioned line + bight legs) 5' long = 15' total; you pull another 10',
and now there is 25' to account for, and backing up 10' of truck comes back to that
5' point (where bight added 2x5') and now 5' of haul line has 20' slack which is 10'
of bight, and you stand at the 5' mark with backed up truck, so bight end can be 10'
away!)

Quote
while the driver takes up slack again - and so the process goes.

Also, you are expanding the area consumed in absorbing the slack, and thus
converging on having no room to make an additional pull with the truck.  The
slack lengthens at half the retreat of the truck, and this puts its end ever
farther from the truck hitch.  And so, this approach is limited in terms of the
proportion of distance the truck can drive vis-a-vis the reach to the log.

Quote
I would have walked ... Job Jobbed.

Yes, increased walking, diminished hauling:  "job jobbed' means "aggravated"?
I think some re-thinking is needed here.

Another proposal above, that of tying/re-tying a Lapp bend at the point of the
redirection of the haul line (say), runs into one initial problem:  after the first
pull, say, 26', the bight end is now half that span (13') away from the tyer, who
must retrieve it somehow lest the line be driven over by the retreating truck.
But after this initial situation, the slack will be long enough to reach to the
redirection/tyer's point, and subsequent tying is made easily, and additional
slack can simply accumulate beside this point, piled as it is retrieved
as the truck backs up, being pulled out of its way; the knot is made with
short tensioned ends leading to the block and to the truck and the knot's
ends are united in the indefinite length of slack.

--dl*
====

ps:  The msg.s re this "rope problem" should be collected and moved to an
appropriately titled thread, leaving "Essential Knots" to continue to collect
remarks as to what knots ... , vs. the details of some particular knot etc..

squarerigger

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2006, 03:29:21 AM »
Oh, for the love of Alice Roy - TEACH ALICE TO TIE A LAPP BEND or we'll never hear the end of this!  As the old saying goes "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" - probably not the right thing to hear but this has gone on long enough!  Dan does seem to think it's broke, so just tell him he's right and we'll all be happy - well, maybe not Alice or you or anyone else convinced that a S/s will work for someone who requires no further training, having learned how to do this one adequately and who gets it right this way every time.  Yes, Dan, the S/s does require that she pull the line back with the truck each time (unless Roy is such a good driver that he does not run over his own towed line - I've seen him drive and he doesn't need further training) which is still a good idea anyway.  The S/s also does not require effort on his or Alice's part to learn a new knot, even if it would work better.  The mouse has already taken the cheese and been caught, so why worry baiting the trap with candy?  I will give Dan his due - the Lapp Bend IS easier to make, once having learned it.  It is also easy to mess up, if the line starts to twist on you or you put the hauling line under the loop instead of over it, or if the line is caked with mud or you just can't pull the bight through fully, but still, it is more efficient and so should be accepted by all, right?  After all, did not Ashley himself declare "Either it's right or it's not" or something like that.  Yes, all the things I said can go wrong with the LB can also go wrong with the S/s, the difference being that Alice knows the S/s and knows what needs fixing!  Well, I have probably gotten someone else hot under the collar by now so I'll back off just a tad and see what fallout I receive this time. ???

Lindsey

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2006, 04:14:20 AM »
Hi Lindsey,
  I guess I don't know the Lapp Bend.  I may search for it, or not.  As I said, posts back, when you (Lindsey) knew exactly how we haul wood... welcome to our camp anytime.  Now Alice has two broken ribs from flying off the porch.  So now I need a knot for the "one man team".  But of course I'll find it.  Alice has taken a fall off the porch and has some fractured ribs.  Wood still needs to be gathered.  I was going to jpg the gathering of wood  as we did it with the SS but with Alice and her ribs there will be no SS in our camp.
   Folks are on a ten foot visualization.  I have 10 acres.  43,560 squre feet per acre.  You have seen a clear cut or a harvest burn?  So my cutting by hand and my picking of one tree at a time may not seem like a big deal to you, or not.
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

squarerigger

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2006, 04:49:24 AM »
Hey Roy,

I am very sorry to hear of Alice having fallen and please know I was NOT serious about teaching her the Lapp Bend - I feel sure there are plenty who can teach it out there - it seems to me nothing more nor less than a modification of the Sheet Bend passing over the line and tucking down into the bight with a slippery loop instead - Budworth uses a loop of a Perfection loop but I suspect that an eye splice will do the job just as well on the tree end of the line.  I started the ten foot number to have something easy to work with in numbers - not a serious consideration, given the size of your space.  Yes, I have seen a clear cut and yes, I know what it takes to move stuff, so I appreciate all that you have patiently responded with on this question.  I know that you use the knot and I know that it works for you and Alice.  Please give her my regards and say hello - I wish her well and a speedy recovery which I know you will be helping along with care and perhaps cups of tea.  Good luck with your solo efforts - be careful out there!  Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Lindsey

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2006, 05:16:41 AM »
Hi Lindsey and all,
  Alice wil just have to heal up in her own good time.  Ain't that the bitch.  I am so sorry that the SS got so out of shape.  Lindsey gets "it" as one can keep one's feet and keep looping bights back and forward and casting a half hitch over thre loops ends ad infiinum item.  Until infinity.  Alice (bless her soul) need not shift a foot, but to gather slack and cast on half hitches.   I'll post a photo on this and then let it rest.  Sorry to have raised a post that is so complex but so happy to have raised a post that is so simple.  Pass 1000 bights from left to right in front of you.  Cast a half hitch about the left bights and a half hitch abouit the right bights and you have a SS with 1000 bights, each which can be as much as youy are willing to pass before you.  Could be 10,000 foot per bight.  You don't need to move your feet.
  Lidsey, when you coming up to work some wood?
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

bridog

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2006, 08:02:21 AM »
ABOK #1161 which makes perfect sense but was not what I envisioned whatsoever.  That was much clearer this time.  Thanks KnotNow!

DerekSmith

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2006, 01:14:08 PM »
snip...
And now YOU come with ...

Yup ... and here I come along with...   and don't you just hate it when some little frustration comes along and takes the thread off at a tangent?

Still, I guess that I am just one of those little annoyances you will have to tolerate for a while ;)

Derek

DerekSmith

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2006, 01:32:46 PM »
Quote from: DerekSmith link=topic=452.msg3949#msg3949date=1159634863
If I were Alice, I would wait for the SUV to back up the first time and then pull a bight of towline round the tow hitch.

Here you inject a new condition on the situation:  a special nature
to the truck-hitch point such that a bight can be pulled around it.

Yup...  Here I inject a new condition on the situation  --  but that is the nature of the challenge I am proposing. - One truck, one rope, one mate and a big bad lump of tree and only a few feet to move in --  How would you do it?  It is not just about what knot you would use but HOW would you do it?  Knots by themselves are simply curves in cord.  A knot is really only a Knot when it is at work, and to put knots to work you need to consider the application and the circumstances.  Just teaching people to tie knots is meaningless unless we can promote ingenuity in their use and along with this - hand in hand - goes rope craft.

Challenges such as "If I were Alice" should help us realise that knowing 20 clever knots is not enough.  Maybe six really good knots might be all you will need if first you think about how you will get the job done.

Instead of blowing "Essential Knots" up into a list containing virtually every known knot, doesn't the title require us more to think --  What are the essential knots with which I can best get through life?  To do this we have to consider what those knots might be used for, then which of the core "Essential Knots" will serve to do the job?  After we have considered HOW, then we can consider what knot, and is it essential.

Derek
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 03:12:44 PM by DerekSmith »

DerekSmith

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2006, 03:28:35 PM »

Huh?!  This is quite a "throw", as the bight lengthens by half the retreat of the truck,
so if it backs up 10' and you only 5', you are at the TRUCK end, and the bight end
(if pulled away) will be 10' away from there.

Nope, as I said, as I pull the slack up into a longer bight, I walk two paces away from the truck - i.e. I am still with the bight end.  When I have pulled up enough slack to still be able to throw a HH over the bight, I make the (half SS).  If slack needs to be taken up, I can haul on the bight and slide the HH down the bight to tension before the driver moves off.

This is not as good as Roys (Alices) method because their method, Alice did not need to walk at all, she just kept building the compounding SS in front of her.  This is a different method which just requires less knot making (with more walking).

Derek

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2006, 04:40:26 AM »
Hi Derek,
  Not much walking, as you said the line is all in front of Alice and all she needs to do is pass line, not walk.  The half hitch can be open and the bights can be huge.  Now the ribs keep her from doing anything.  So my methods must change.
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

DerekSmith

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2006, 12:39:25 PM »
Hi Derek,
  Not much walking, as you said the line is all in front of Alice and all she needs to do is pass line, not walk.  The half hitch can be open and the bights can be huge.  Now the ribs keep her from doing anything.  So my methods must change.

Hi Roy,

I hope Alice is comfortable.  I have only had bruised ribs and that was bad, so I have no idea of what pain Alice must be suffering - honestly, the lengths some people go to to get out of collecting the firewood  ;) - sorry, couldn't resist that, please pass on my regards and best wishes to Alice, I hope she has a speedy recovery.

However, as you say, Alices DIY skydiving has left you with a new challenge and I am certain that those following this thread will be keen to hear just how you might approach the problem.  This thread is called "Essential Knots?" and has collected a number of proposals from members, (hopefully Lasse will start his Poll soon as he suggested at the beginning of the thread).  However, whenever I read a post regarding selecting 'The Best Knots' I am reminded of Dan Lehmans posts back in January last year titled "Setting About Knotting".  In that article, Dan made the point that any selection of a group of knots should (I would prefer MUST) be done with consideration for the task to be performed.  In addition to this, I would personally add that the knot chosen should be the simplest possible to effectively achieve the desired result and to achieve that you have to look closely at HOW you will do something.

I like to consider challenges where there is a difficult job that would normally take a number of people to do it, but my self challenge is how to achieve it with nothing but rope and ingenuity to assist me.  Consequently the challenge you now face 'tickles my fancy' and offers the opportunity of considering knots 'at work'.  So, how simple a solution will you eventually come up with?

Derek

KnotNow!

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Re: Essential Knots?
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2006, 03:09:05 AM »
Hi Derek,
  Anyone who heats with wood will know how tardy I am this year, cutting the first wood of the year on the day of the first fire.  Ocotober being very late for the need and about a year late for the cutting!  I have a number of footpaths in my woods.  I often cut up trees where they stand dead, on the stump (or fall by wind too, windfall of the highest order).  Sound wood I mill to planks and timber with an attachment on a chain saw.   Wood with some remaining heating value I cut, split as necessary, and put a rope sling around about 80# if the path is narrow and tote it on my back, or two slings around #50 each for a yoke, if the path is wide.  Then I walk out with it.  A very few trails can be used with a wheelborrow (yes, that is how I learned to walk on my hind legs).  Most of the rigging for this work is to be safe in cutting a tree that has been blown into other standing trees.  Also I need to put some strain on a tree to keep the saw from binding or the finished cut from jumping at me.  I use a handy billy, some fair lead blocks, some hook straps and on occasion a double tackle, compounded with the handy billy.  Arborists do this sort of task with far less hardware, as a matter of course but it is one thing to do something 40 hours a week for a few decades and a far different thing to come to it for 5 to 10 cord per year (much of which is easy wood).  The joy of it is that we stay warm for a few cents and what would go to rot is not wasted.  The huge joy of making timber(lumber) is that a windfall may make many hundreds of dollars of wood planks and timbers for several gallons of sweat and a gallon of fuel.  Formerly I used a broad axe, adz and draw knife to make timber and a pit saw to make boards.  I still can, as riding a bicycle... not easily forgotten.  But the saw can do in a day what would take me a week or more with the hand tools.  I keep my tools on hand and often it isn't worth the effort to drag the power saw out if you just want some rough construction timber.
  I don't know how many of you get "Knot News", the news letter of IGKT-PAB (and I was always disappointed that IGKT "Knotting Matters" did not pick up and republish some of the articles... well any of the articles) but I did some drawings to show how Alice and I built our cabin "at grade" (on the flat) and then raised complete walls using a gin pole and blocks.  We also built sections of the roof on the ground and again lifted with gin pole.  All plywood subroof went up an incline with tackle and gin so there was no need to fight 4x8 sheets on my hump.  We built on an 18 pitch (1.5 foot of rise for each foot of run... very steep, think "A" frame).  Walking on an 8 pitch is very nerve wracking and an 18 can't be done, so being on a harness and safety line is the only way.  We used knots and blocks and I could dance on the roof while Alice was not only my belay but could walk me up the roof.  Tomorrow I'll try to remember how to post a photo.  Too late right now.
  I chose this life style for many reasons.  Low impact might be the root.  Using sweat instead of plastic.  It would be impossible to live here, in the woods,  without knots even if cost were no object.
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.