Author Topic: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline  (Read 21789 times)

X1

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   Scott s locked bowline is a bowline where a simple "lock" of the Tail improves the security of the simple common bowline. It can be tied in two slightly different variations. In the original one (1), which is not TIB, the working end makes a sharp U turn around the rim of the nipping turn. By a slight modification, we can tie the same knot where the working end encircles the rim of the nipping turn, as before, AND the eye leg of the Tail as well, thus following a wider curve at the area of the turn(2). It turns out that this second variation happens to be TIB (3), which comes as an unexpected bonus, and makes this eyeknot a very interesting and versatile one. We do not have many PET AND TIB eyeknots ! ( See the attached pictures ).
   However, Scott himself claims that, by this sharp U turn / bending of the rope around the rim of the nipping turn in the original version, the Tail is relieved more efficiently by any pulling from the eye leg of the Tail. I keep insisting that sharp U turns of rope strands around one rope diameter should better be avoided, because, when tied on stiff material - especially if those strands are not loaded from both sides, as it happens in the case the strand is a Tail - those turns have the tendency to remain slag, and run the danger to pull the Tail out of the collar, if the knot has not been "locked" yet. Also, a knot where there are no "eyes wide open" is a more compact and denser knot, with a less bulky appearance. I have not been able to convince Scott till now, but I am not disappointed yet, given how  few people I have been able to convince about anything in this Forum !  :)
   Now, the challenge is to figure pout a simple, easy to be memorised and implemented tying method for the Scott s TIB locked bowline. To find such an easy TIB method is not always an easy thing !  :)  Personally, I have failed to "see" the fact that a knot is TIB, and then to find a simple TIB tying method many times  - so that I have lost faith in my abilities related to this... Luca and Allan Lee have showed a great talent in tying and untying TIB bowlines, and I do not doubt many other knot tyers would be able to figure out a neat solution on this problem.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20538#msg20538
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20616#msg20616
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4480.msg28877#msg28877
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 12:30:38 AM by X1 »

SS369

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2013, 12:40:02 AM »
   Scott s locked bowline is a bowline where a simple "lock" of the Tail improves the security of the simple common bowline. It can be tied in two slightly different variations. In the original one (1), which is not TIB, the working end makes a sharp U turn around the rim of the nipping turn. By a slight modification we can tie the same knot where the working end encircles the rim of the nipping turn, as before, AND the eye leg of the Tail as well, thus following a wider curve at the area of the turn(2). It turns out that this second variation happens to be TIB (3), which comes as an unexpected bonus, and makes this eyeknot a very interesting and versatile one. We do not have many PET AND TIB eyeknots ! ( See the attached pictures ).
   However, Scott himself claims that, by this sharp U turn / bending of the rope around the rim of the nipping turn in the original version, the Tail is relieved more efficiently by any pulling from the eye leg of the Tail. I keep insisting that sharp U turns of rope strands around one rope diameter should better be avoided, because, when tied on stiff material - especially if those strands are not loaded from both sides, as it happens in the case the strand is a Tail - those turns have the tendency to remain slag, and run the danger to pull the Tail out of the collar, if the knot has not been "locked" yet. Also, a knot where there are no "eyes wide open" is a more compact and denser knot, with a less bulky appearance. I have not been able to convince Scott till now, but I am not disappointed yet, given how  few people I have been able to convince abut anything in this Forum !  :)
   Now, the challenge is to figure pout a simple, easy to be memorised and implemented tying method for the Scott s TIB locked bowline. To find such an easy TIB method is not always an easy thing !  :)  Personally, I have failed to "see" the fact that a knot is TIB, and then to find a simple TIB tying method many times  - so that I have lost faith in my abilities related to this... Luca and Allan Lee have showed a great talent in tying and untying TIN bowlines, and I do not doubt many other knot tyers would be able to figure out a neat solution on this problem.
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20538#msg20538
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20616#msg20616
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4480.msg28877#msg28877


While I generally agree with your statement about rope turns around a single diameter being a potential detriment, I don't agree in this case. In fact, I personally believe the opposite is true in this case. The single u turn around the area in this example will provide more clamping and security, where as, if the area is rounder then it will have less clamping force to resist tail movement because the load/force is spread over two diameters.

Having just returned from a day of climbing and using the single version I can attest to the confidence I have in this loop and its security. I intentionally jumped 20 feet and inspected the loop and its parts. Only a tightening of the knot where expected took place. No tail was eaten.

The simple lock, version one is a bit sleeker and compact than the TIB version and so I wish you good luck convincing me that the TIB version is more secure(better). ;-)))

Version one:
Easy to remember how to tie as well. Very easy to inspect. Works great with stiff, static ropes as well. And when you're done it unties easily.

SS

X1

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2013, 02:24:21 AM »
if the area is rounder then it will have less clamping force to resist tail movement, because the load/force is spread over two diameters.
   Good try,,, but you would nt believe I will swallow it before I examine it, would you ?  :)
   At THIS area, there is no clamping force by the nipping turn ! There is only a U turn around the outer surface of the rim of the nipping turn - either around one rope diameter, kicking and screaming, or around two rope diameters, happily following a wider curve that leads the working end into the centre of the nipping turn. In BOTH variations, the Tail is relieved by a great amount of pulling force at this U turn ( as it happens in every Tail after it has made the U turn around the Standing end we call "collar" ), and only THEN it goes into the heart of the nipping turn, where it is squeezed by it, and immobilized by its contact with three other two segments there. ( We should notice here that the Tail and the eye leg of the Tail meet in this central area at a right angle - the right angle any two segments should meet, in order to be immobilized most efficiently ). So, the clamping force acts at the centre of the nipping turn, NOT at the outer surface of the rim of the nipping turn, which is encircled by the U turn ! So, regarding the clamping force, the diameter of the U turn plays no role at all ! There is no advantage having a sharper U turn there rather a wider one - but there are disadvantages, which were explained in my previous post.
   In fact, if the interested reader has even a quick look at the two variations, he will realize that there is no difference in the nipping turn or the location of the Tail in the point where the clamping forces do act on it...See the image you have submitted in the other post : One can hardly notice which variation is presented - because this "front" view is almost identical. However, when I look this poor anaconda having to bend so much before it enters into the hole where it will be clamped, I wonder why it has to suffer this torture.
   Now, it would be great to actually measure the forces on the Tail in the two variations - or use such a slippery material that would possibly reveal any small motion in the weakest of them. Otherwise I will not be convinced by the moving attempt to protect your first child, and ignore the second ! I can only see a sharp and a wide U turn, around the rim of the nipping turn, or around the same rim of the same nipping turn in the same location, PLUS around the eye leg of the Tail - and we all know that the possible capstan effect on the segment that makes this U turn does not depend on the diameter of the drum. A wider turn may not relieve the Tail more, but it also does not relieve it less.

version one is a bit sleeker and compact than the TIB version ....
 
  You know the joke with the farmer and the two cows, the white and the black one...(2).He always praises the black, even if he has to admit that their qualities are, in fact, identical. You are cautious to use this "a bit", that is true, but even this does not tell the whole story...Because if a stiff springy Tail resists this painful bending, the U turn will remain an "eye wide open", so, actually, the total volume of the knot will be larger, not smaller ! It will be sleeker and more compact, ONLY when and after it will be locked, and ONLY if the material is not very stiff. Otherwise, it will not, and I was talking about this "otherwise"...

Version one:
Easy to remember how to tie as well. Very easy to inspect. Works great with stiff, static ropes as well. And when you're done it unties easily .....

   "Oh, the black cow...Such a superb animal...It produces the best milk in the village..." " And the white cow ?" " The white cow ? It produces exactly the same quality of milk as the black one..."
   BOTH versions are tied in the same number of tucks, in almost the same way. BOTH are easy to inspect - because if the one IS easy to inspect, so will be the other ! They are almost identical ! BOTH work great with stiff static rope - because if the version one does work great, the version two will do as well, and even greater ! And when you are done, BOTH will untie easily. ( Provided that the version one, with the Tail-made spring, has not become untied already !  :)  )

1.
The city guy decides one morning to go out for a walk in the country.  As he is ambling down the sunny country path, he comes across a simple farmer, tending his two cows.

 "Good morning, farmer," says the city guy.

 "And good morning to you, sir," says the farmer.  And he pauses, and waits.

 The city guy, out of his element, thinks that probably just ending it there isn't enough.  Struggling for a further topic, he says, "Those are some fine cows you have there."

 "Oh, yes, the black cow is a lovely cow, she is," says the farmer.

 "And the white cow?"

 "Well," the farmer pauses, "... yes, I suppose the white cow is good too."

 "Yes, they certainly look fit and healthy," says the city guy.

 "Indeed, the black cow is the healthiest I've ever had! Never needed the vet, full of life!" responds the farmer.

 "And the white cow?"

 "Well,... yes, the white cow is pretty healthy too."

 "So I suppose they give a lot of milk then?"

 The farmer beams. "You should see the black cow, come milking time, she's full to bursting with the creamiest milk, she is. Oh yes indeed, the black cow gives a lot of milk she does."

 "And the white cow?"

 "Oh, well, yes... I suppose the white cow gives a lot of milk too."

 The city guy doesn't really know where to go with this.  The farmer seems to really have something special for the black cow, even though the white cow seems just as good.

 "You know, farmer, I don't mean to intrude, but it seems every time I ask you really favour the black cow...."

 "Well, isn't it obvious?" asks the farmer, "The black cow is MY cow!"

 "Ah, I see. And the white cow?"

 "Well, yeah, the white cow is mine, too."
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 02:44:31 AM by X1 »

SS369

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2013, 03:17:07 AM »
if the area is rounder then it will have less clamping force to resist tail movement, because the load/force is spread over two diameters.
   Good try,,, but you would nt believe I will swallow it before I examine it, would you ?  :)
   At THIS area, there is no clamping force by the nipping turn ! There is only a U turn around the outer surface of the rim of the nipping turn - either around one rope diameter, kicking and screaming, or around two rope diameters, happily following a wider curve that leads the working end into the centre of the nipping turn. In BOTH variations, the Tail is relieved by a great amount of pulling force at this U turn ( as it happens in every Tail after it has made the U turn around the Standing end we call "collar" ), and only THEN it goes into the heart of the nipping turn, where it is squeezed by it, and immobilized by its contact with three other two segments there. ( We should notice here that the Tail and the eye leg of the Tail meet in this central area at a right angle - the right angle any two segments should meet, in order to be immobilized most efficiently ). So, the clamping force acts at the centre of the nipping turn, NOT at the outer surface of the rim of the nipping turn, which is encircled by the U turn ! So, regarding the clamping force, the diameter of the U turn plays no role at all ! There is no advantage having a sharper U turn there rather a wider one - but there are disadvantages, which were explained in my previous post.
   In fact, if the interested reader has even a quick look at the two variations, he will realize that there is no difference in the nipping turn or the location of the Tail in the point where the clamping forces do act on it...See the image you have submitted in the other post : One can hardly notice which variation is presented - because this "front" view is almost identical. However, when I look this poor anaconda having to bend so much before it enters into the hole where it will be clamped, I wonder why it has to suffer this torture.
   Now, it would be great to actually measure the forces on the Tail in the two variations - or use such a slippery material that would possibly reveal any small motion in the weakest of them. Otherwise I will not be convinced by the moving attempt to protect your first child, and ignore the second ! I can only see a sharp and a wide U turn, around the rim of the nipping turn, or around the same rim of the same nipping turn in the same location, PLUS around the eye leg of the Tail - and we all know that the possible capstan effect on the segment that makes this U turn does not depend on the diameter of the drum. A wider turn may not relieve the Tail more, but it also does not relieve it less.

version one is a bit sleeker and compact than the TIB version ....
 
  You know the joke with the farmer and the two cows, the white and the black one...(2).He always praises the black, even if he has to admit that their qualities are, in fact, identical. You are cautious to use this "a bit", that is true, but even this does not tell the whole story...Because if a stiff springy Tail resists this painful bending, the U turn will remain an "eye wide open", so, actually, the total volume of the knot will be larger, not smaller ! It will be sleeker and more compact, ONLY when and after it will be locked, and ONLY if the material is not very stiff. Otherwise, it will not, and I was talking about this "otherwise"...

Version one:
Easy to remember how to tie as well. Very easy to inspect. Works great with stiff, static ropes as well. And when you're done it unties easily .....

   "Oh, the black cow...Such a superb animal...It produces the best milk in the village..." " And the white cow ?" " The white cow ? It produces exactly the same quality of milk as the black one..."
   BOTH versions are tied in the same number of tucks, in almost the same way. BOTH are easy to inspect - because if the one IS easy to inspect, so will be the other ! They are almost identical ! BOTH work great with stiff static rope - because if the version one does work great, the version two will do as well, and even greater ! And when you are done, BOTH will untie easily. ( Provided that the version one, with the Tail-made spring, has not become untied already !  :)  )

1.
The city guy decides one morning to go out for a walk in the country.  As he is ambling down the sunny country path, he comes across a simple farmer, tending his two cows.

 "Good morning, farmer," says the city guy.

 "And good morning to you, sir," says the farmer.  And he pauses, and waits.

 The city guy, out of his element, thinks that probably just ending it there isn't enough.  Struggling for a further topic, he says, "Those are some fine cows you have there."

 "Oh, yes, the black cow is a lovely cow, she is," says the farmer.

 "And the white cow?"

 "Well," the farmer pauses, "... yes, I suppose the white cow is good too."

 "Yes, they certainly look fit and healthy," says the city guy.

 "Indeed, the black cow is the healthiest I've ever had! Never needed the vet, full of life!" responds the farmer.

 "And the white cow?"

 "Well,... yes, the white cow is pretty healthy too."

 "So I suppose they give a lot of milk then?"

 The farmer beams. "You should see the black cow, come milking time, she's full to bursting with the creamiest milk, she is. Oh yes indeed, the black cow gives a lot of milk she does."

 "And the white cow?"

 "Oh, well, yes... I suppose the white cow gives a lot of milk too."

 The city guy doesn't really know where to go with this.  The farmer seems to really have something special for the black cow, even though the white cow seems just as good.

 "You know, farmer, I don't mean to intrude, but it seems every time I ask you really favour the black cow...."

 "Well, isn't it obvious?" asks the farmer, "The black cow is MY cow!"

 "Ah, I see. And the white cow?"

 "Well, yeah, the white cow is mine, too."



I see the difference between the offered Blue Cow and the Black Cow. Looks like the Blue Cow has a bit of gout.
One does seem easier to inspect more readily to me. The straight vertical line of the tail (V1) versus a more meandering path of V2.
Version 2 starts its life as a bowline with the tail outside and so we are not truly Cow to Cow.

Tie both with the stiffest rope you have to a not quite fully dressed state (close though), then grab the eye and just pull them both holding on to the standing part (best on the same rope to do a tug o war). See which one approximates the desired finished acceptability first.
Version two, besides being uglier, ;-)) has soo much more space left inside the nip area compared to the contest winner. lol

I recommend that you hang and jump (Very close to the ground! and with a pillow underneath! and someone to catch you!) on version two and if you survive try version one and then put that Blue Cow out of its misery. ;D ;D ;D

Seriously, use the one You will feel the most confidence with.

X1

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2013, 04:58:10 AM »
One does seem easier to inspect more readily to me

   Why ? I do not see any difference... I follow, visually, each line with the same easiness ( or difficulty, becows cows are cows...)

The straight vertical line of the tail (V1) versus a more meandering path of V2.

   Yeahhh... If the blue cow had swallowed the stick the Black cow has, its neck would be straight as well ! The Blue cow is tied on 10mm, not in 17.5mm as the Black cow ! It has the 1 / 3 of the Black cow s area, so it has the 1 / 3 of the Black cow s stiffness, in absolute numbers  !
   See what exactly the tail of the Black cow has to do, to exit through the cows back : Go over ( the "lower" rim of the nipping turn), then go under ( the "higher: rim of the nipping turn), then go over again ( the rim of the collar ). Exactly the same over/under/over  path the Tail of the Blue Cow follows...The difference you see is due to the huge rope you used. Tie them on the same rope, and then tell me which is the straightest neck.
Your beauty contest would be valid in front of an audience full of willing bulls, but not anywhere else, I am afraid. Both cows are... well,  as beautiful as as a cow can be !  :)
   I suggest you tie them on the same rope, and tie also farmer Lehman s cow, and let all three of them on the same grass, to see what happens. A tug-of-war between them would be interesting, indeed  Before you turn Blue Cow into tasty steaks, examine it a little bid more. And try to figure out how one can tie it in the bight, for CowGod s sake ! THAT was the issue in this thread, remember ?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 05:04:15 AM by X1 »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2013, 05:55:28 AM »
Quote
I can attest to the confidence I have in this loop and its security.
I intentionally jumped 20 feet and inspected the loop and its parts.
Only a tightening of the knot where expected took place. No tail was eaten.
Except that this is not "QED":  it's not solving the
problem posed by the knot, which is insecurity
when slack & jostled or rubbed.  --not the problem
in kernmantle use, that is.  (In HMPE there is the
problem of slippage, which this knot won't help.)

As for the tighter clamping of wrapping 1dia. vs. 2,
that only occurs if the wrapping is tight enough
and overcomes resistance to bending,
which is a concern for firm kernmantle cordage;
in some such ropes, one cannot manually
make a 1dia. wrap --it just won't go!
(PMI pit rope; aged BWII)


--dl*
====

SS369

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2013, 01:36:15 PM »
Quote
I can attest to the confidence I have in this loop and its security.
I intentionally jumped 20 feet and inspected the loop and its parts.
Only a tightening of the knot where expected took place. No tail was eaten.
Except that this is not "QED":  it's not solving the
problem posed by the knot, which is insecurity
when slack & jostled or rubbed.  --not the problem
in kernmantle use, that is.  (In HMPE there is the
problem of slippage, which this knot won't help.)

As for the tighter clamping of wrapping 1dia. vs. 2,
that only occurs if the wrapping is tight enough
and overcomes resistance to bending,
which is a concern for firm kernmantle cordage;
in some such ropes, one cannot manually
make a 1dia. wrap --it just won't go!
(PMI pit rope; aged BWII)


--dl*
====

The tail is secured very well against dislodging when slack or jostled. I did not indicate that it could not be untied! Are we talking theoretically here? Take the rope, tie the knot (like you were actually going to use it), use a sufficiently safe tail length (say 10-12 times the rope diameter) and beat the heck out of it.

I climb with it as a tie in knot and it gets rubbed and jostled enough on the way up to let me consider that aspect. It is not a problem, even in stiff rope. 10.5 BW ProTac is very firm and we've top roped with it and there is no problem with this as a tie in loop at all.

This constant referral to HMPE slippage, it is a challenge that I believe will persist through out time immemorial, till a most appropriate knot will be devise/invented. Coated HMPE seems to do better.
Maybe there is no Ultimate Knot that can satisfy all media and scenarios.

I can attest that the rope I have used, stated above, will take a turn of less than one diameter. I have it right here and can make a turn that the rope will not pass through and it will bite enough to resist pull though.
As stated in the BW technical manual Technical manual Rev 0612  Page 5
"Knot flexibility ? K: A right hand
overhand knot is tied into the rope and a left hand
overhand knot tied 250 below. The rope is loaded
to 10 kg for one minute. Each knot?s interior
diameter is then measured under a 1 kg load. Th
e average of the interior of the hold must be
less than the diameter of the rope. This testing is
no longer a requirement of the standard but it
is included for reference as to one method
to determine flexibility of various ropes"Technical manual Rev 0612  Page 5
Knot flexibility ? K: A right hand
overhand knot is tied into the rope and a left hand
overhand knot tied 250 below. The rope is loaded
to 10 kg for one minute. Each knot?s interior
diameter is then measured under a 1 kg load. Th
e average of the interior of the hole must be
less than the diameter of the rope. This testing is
no longer a requirement of the standard but it
is included for reference as to one method
to determine flexibility of various ropes. "

Yes, I know that not all ropes do all things. Age and design have influence.
So to the reader/user: Use your head and choose wisely and appropriately for the material used and the task.

As for the TIB challenge of the OP. I have not found a way and I don't think I will.

SS

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2013, 05:43:55 PM »
This constant referral to HMPE slippage, it is a challenge that I believe will persist\]through out time immemorial, till a most appropriate knot will be devise/invented. Coated HMPE seems to do better.
For HMPE, a main issue is loss of strength, no matter
--getting to 40% of tensile being what I see as reasonably
expected, but no better.  (That's 60% loss, 40% remaining.)
But for security, there are knots that hold, as my
mirrored bowline version showed, in Brion's one test;
with *bowlines*, for this, it's a matter of something more
than the mere defining nipping loop in the SPart.

Quote
As stated in the BW technical manual Technical manual Rev 0612  Page 5
"Knot flexibility ? K: A right hand
overhand knot is tied into the rope and a left hand
overhand knot tied 250 below. The rope is loaded
to 10 kg for one minute. Each knot?s interior
diameter is then measured under a 1 kg load. Th
e average of the interior of the hold must be
less than the diameter of the rope. This testing is
no longer a requirement of the standard but it
is included for reference as to one method
to determine flexibility of various ropes"

Wow, this thread is destined to win the Verbose Award
(with a copy of X.'s country story in full, and duplicates
of BW --in need of some editing.  (And did they need
some indication of unit of measure for "250" --mm?!
Odd, too, that what might have international, ISO
audience, used "right hand ..." vs. "S/Z" terms.)
"Knot flexibility" here looks better called, as it has been
in the past, "knotability" : for it is a combination of
the resistance to bending and friction of surface that
leads to the tightening of the overhand & other knots.

As for actual rockclimbing, one should wonder about
the general disposition of the eye knot when "leading"
vs. "following or TR-ing" --i.e., the knot lies generally
downward or upward, respectively.


--dl*
====


SS369

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2013, 11:53:55 PM »
This constant referral to HMPE slippage, it is a challenge that I believe will persist\]through out time immemorial, till a most appropriate knot will be devise/invented. Coated HMPE seems to do better.
For HMPE, a main issue is loss of strength, no matter
--getting to 40% of tensile being what I see as reasonably
expected, but no better.  (That's 60% loss, 40% remaining.)
But for security, there are knots that hold, as my
mirrored bowline version showed, in Brion's one test;
with *bowlines*, for this, it's a matter of something more
than the mere defining nipping loop in the SPart.   Except that this is not "QED":  it's not solving the
problem posed by the knot, which is insecurity
when slack & jostled or rubbed.  --not the problem
in kernmantle use, that is.  >>>(In HMPE there is the
problem of slippage, which this knot won't help.)


From a recent post within this thread that I was commenting to.

Quote
As stated in the BW technical manual Technical manual Rev 0612  Page 5
"Knot flexibility ? K: A right hand
overhand knot is tied into the rope and a left hand
overhand knot tied 250 below. The rope is loaded
to 10 kg for one minute. Each knot?s interior
diameter is then measured under a 1 kg load. Th
e average of the interior of the hold must be
less than the diameter of the rope. This testing is
no longer a requirement of the standard but it
is included for reference as to one method
to determine flexibility of various ropes"

Pasted as it was found.

Quote
Wow, this thread is destined to win the Verbose Award 
(with a copy of X.'s country story in full, and duplicates
of BW --in need of some editing.
 

I can certainly agree here and a few other places and a few members who are particularly accomplished at it.

Quote
As for actual rockclimbing, one should wonder about
the general disposition of the eye knot when "leading"
vs. "following or TR-ing" --i.e., the knot lies generally
downward or upward, respectively.

One can wonder or one can climb and know.

We are veering away from the thrust of the thread and should quell the arguments and get back to it if anyone has anything to say about the TIB possibility.

SS
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 11:58:00 PM by SS369 »

kd8eeh

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2013, 06:00:49 AM »
Refering to this thread's original purpose, the best way i can find (quickly, that is) is as follows.  Admittedly, i cannot replicate it successfully from memory, but i am not great at tying any tib loops correctly.  I believe the variations that show up later can be tied by simple variations of this method, but i am not sure.  After the last step you tuck the two collars formed around the loop of the slip knot behind the rest of the knot.  Tell me if i need another picture for the last step.  You may need to redress the knot after tying it this way.

X1

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2013, 09:42:37 AM »
   Your method is fine, easy to follow and relatively easy to remember, but I do not see how it can tie Scott s TIB locked bowline, after stage 4...because, in Scotts s knot the Standing end and the Tail pass from the same ide of the rim of the main collar  - not from opposite sides, as in your knot. Meaning, between the two ends there is no strand, as it is shown in your fourth picture. Also, can you, please, take your pictures against a clear, one colour background, and have them just a little bid more focused ? Use the camera of your phone, of the camera of the computer, as you do now, but making it facing the wall, parallel to it, and holding the knot here, in between the screen and the wall. You can also present your sequence in "slower" , more steps - do not worry, I will take new pictures as soon as I understand the method ...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 09:50:25 AM by X1 »

Luca

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2013, 01:58:01 PM »
Hi X1,

This is my attempt to represent how I found a way to do this bowline with a method in the bight(relatively)easy to remember and quite quick to perform(I have not still checked the photos by kd8eeh, but I decided to post also my pictures , because last night I lost a few hours of sweet sleep for take me on with this work! :D)
As often happens these my schemes do not make full justice to reality:who will have a little patience will see that actually things are simpler than I do appear!
I run 6 steps,deciding to mark in red the portion of the rope the whose position is changed in the following diagram;the upper loop in the first diagram,basically gives origin to the eye,the lowest one gives origin to the collar;after step 6,during the dressing and setting, may be necessary to rearrange the standing parts,that in the diagram, for simplicity (or laziness .. ::)),are "exchanged" compared to the original knot.
The first three steps:







Luca

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2013, 02:00:47 PM »
...and the last three
                                                                                                 Bye!






X1

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2013, 05:09:47 PM »
   last night I lost a few hours of sweet sleep for take me on with this work! :D 
   Congratulations, Luca ! I write it BEFORE examining your solution, because solutions do not matter ! It is the effort that counts, independently of the outcome. If you continue like this, your effort will pay you back every second  spent ! Good work !
   P.S. How many hours of sweet sleep did you say you lose ? Well, lose a few more, please  !  :)  I am sure you can simplify this method MUCH more ! Also, you could possibly show it in a video, on YouTube - when you will simplify I furthert, because now it seems much more complicated that the knot it ties ! Nevertheless, good work ! Go on, we will all have zillions of sweet night sleeps in just a few years, we can spear some to improve our days !  :) 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 05:36:58 PM by X1 »

SS369

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Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2013, 06:50:31 PM »
Testing it out as an animation.

SS
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 06:51:16 PM by SS369 »