Author Topic: A quartet with a pattern?with one I don't know  (Read 1519 times)

clsn

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 16
A quartet with a pattern?with one I don't know
« on: December 08, 2016, 02:18:51 AM »
I'm not a regular reader or poster here; I hope I don't do it wrong.

I noticed what seemed to me to be an interesting pattern among 4 knots, that I thought might be worth repeating.  One of the knots was not one I had seen before (or possibly it was but I have a "new" tying method), so I wanted to ask about it.  Sorry, I'm verbose.

Consider the Alpine Butterfly bend.  It lies on one "corner" of the pattern, the "asymmetric" corner.  Both short ends emerge from the same side of the knot, and the knot features two curved knot-parts that are perpendicular to the standing ends, both of which are also on the same side.

Now look at Hunter's Bend.  The same curved knot-parts on one side of the knot, but the short ends come out of opposite sides.

I thought I was tying a Zeppelin Bend, but apparently I was wrong: basically, hold two ends parallel (in the same direction), tie an overhand knot in one of them around both, and an overhand knot in the same direction in the other around only one (itself), but through the same loop.  You get something like a Zeppelin Bend, only the short ends both emerge from same side.  But note that the structure is still similar to the other two, except now the curved parts are one on each side.  Does this knot have a name?

Lastly the Zeppelin Bend itself, the most symmetric.  I thought it was an unfamiliar knot to me, and independently came up with the "69" method of typing (as described on its wikipedia page), and thought that might have been a novel tying method at least?but apparently not.

Sorry if all this is obvious to the practiced masters; I've been getting into knots again (I've come up with some cool ways to tie THKs in-hand), wanted to tell someone.

knotsaver

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 281
Re: A quartet with a pattern?with one I don't know
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2016, 11:01:43 AM »
Hi clsn,
could you provide a picture, please?
Perhaps you are referring to a Two-Strand Matthew Walker Knot (ABoK #776 or #795 (for the tying method)).
See
 
(from http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5508.msg37944#msg37944)
If that's the case, bear in mind that it will capsize to ABoK #1408-9!?
Ciao,
s.

clsn

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 16
Re: A quartet with a pattern?with one I don't know
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2016, 01:43:27 PM »
Thanks for responding!  No, definitely not a Matthew Walker, and definitely does not capsize into Ashley's "whatnot".  Here, took some pictures, before and after tightening.  You can see how similar it is to the others in the series.

knotsaver

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 281
Re: A quartet with a pattern?with one I don't know
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2016, 02:42:34 PM »
Thanks for responding!  No, definitely not a Matthew Walker, and definitely does not capsize into Ashley's "whatnot".  Here, took some pictures, before and after tightening.  You can see how similar it is to the others in the series.

ABoK #1408-9 aren't the Whatknot(s) (#1406-7): Ashley at #1408 says: "Here is another bend with the same untrustworthy features as the "Whatknot" " ...they can capsize to two different forms: one secure and the other not.
I'm not able from your second picture to say if it is a #1408 or a #1409 (I guess #1408), but there it is your knot! please try tying (again) the knot I've shown in my previous reply or try tying a Two-Strand Matthew Walker Knot (#776) and, by tightening it, you'll obtain your knot. (Or try  obtaining a Two-Strand Matthew Walker Knot from your knot)
You are welcome.
Ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 03:01:58 PM by knotsaver »

clsn

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 16
Re: A quartet with a pattern?with one I don't know
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2016, 12:34:42 AM »
Aha!  Yes, got it.  I had tried tying a Matthew Walker knot and seeing if I could get mine from it, but couldn't... but I tried again on your suggestion, and yes, got it.  The ends are reversed, though (i.e. the working and standing ends are swapped wrt #776, not #1408).  It definitely is #1408 or #1409 though, you are right.  Interesting; it seemed to be as firm a bend as the others in the quartet.  Didn't try knocking it about enough to see how it deforms.  I guess this makes the quartet even more interesting, since three of them--but not the fourth--are such good bends.

knotsaver

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 281
Re: A quartet with a pattern?with one I don't know
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2016, 09:14:47 AM »
...  The ends are reversed, though (i.e. the working and standing ends are swapped wrt #776, not #1408). 

...think about it!
(hint: #776 is perfectly symmetric! ;) )

Quote
it seemed to be as firm a bend as the others in the quartet.

#1408 is secure, you have to pay attention to the tails (as for #1406)!
Have you ever tied ABoK #781 or #783?
try "deforming" them! ;)
(perhaps you want to insert it in the quartet (quintet))

Ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 09:53:24 AM by knotsaver »

clsn

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 16
Re: A quartet with a pattern?with one I don't know
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2016, 12:28:21 AM »
I have played with #731 and #783, but you're right, I have not really tried deforming them.  I see that they do capsize into something... Ah, with the ends coming out *between* the parallel parts, that what you're saying?  Interesting.  I suppose there are a lot of knots (and specifically bends) that are made of interlocked overhand knots; there are a lot of ways to interlock them, it would appear.  So maybe all/most of them share some features of this kind, forming an n-dimensional cube of features... might be fun to map out some more dimensions of it.

Thanks!

knotsaver

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 281
Re: A quartet with a pattern?with one I don't know
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2016, 09:02:38 AM »
Both ABoK #781 and #783 (loose knots with long tails) capsize into Ashley's Bend (named Versatile Bend too, by R. Miles) ABoK #1452.
If you don't allow them to capsize completely, you'll obtain a knot similar to your "quartet knots": I don't know how stable is this "state", I mean I don't know if with heavy load it capsizes completely into #1452!

Now you can try tying 3 strands (lines) bends! :)

Ciao,
s.
p.s. did you verify that you can obtain your knot from #776 with the ends not reversed?