Author Topic: Saving life knot  (Read 9046 times)

knot4u

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2013, 10:27:48 PM »
Well, people already gave their answers for multi-loops before you derailed your own thread to discuss a single loop.

Another option is a Karash Double Loop plus a stopper above. That way, your twin can split his weight between pulling up and having his legs supported by the double loop. This option is both easy to tie and intuitive to use.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 10:32:04 PM by knot4u »

SS369

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2013, 10:33:03 PM »
Would a triple Bowline really work well in this situation? I can see how a loop around each leg helps. However, what good is the third loop if it's not tight around the torso? If it's loose, does the third loop do anything besides confuse your friend?

Also, you can't get the third loop tight if you tie it beforehand, right? This goes for any triple loop, even the harness I describe above.

Has anyone here tried lifting themselves in the air by using a double or triple loop? This is an interesting enough problem that I'll be doing some experimenting...

Yes, I have used a double loop knot for the lower sit harness and a single loop for the chest area. This upper loop does not have to be tight on the torso, just enough to remain high enough to keep the person vertical in the event of a fall. If there were only leg loops the person would flip head down if for any reason their hands let go of the rope (for whatever reason). It doesn't take too long for that person to have a possible medical situation once they are oriented like that.

I would find a triple loop bowline a challenge to size correctly and to put on. Let alone a newbie in trouble.

A bowline with double loops (on a bight or with a bight adding a simple lock) used for the legs and a single locked bowline for the chest loop. Easy to remember and will do the OP's hypothetical task.

SS
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 10:43:19 PM by SS369 »

X1

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2013, 12:24:07 AM »
   This "Karash Double loop" keeps seducing people without any reason...It should be something in the (exotic) name !  :) 
   It is just one of the dozens double eyeknots we already have, and who knows how many more one can easily imagine that can be tied... Many of them are stable, safe, TIB, PET, whatever, but I an not aware of any comparative examination or test between them. The fact that "it works", and it has been tested, is very good, of course - but it is not sufficient to rule out all the other double eyeknots that have not been compared to it, ever ..
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 12:25:27 AM by X1 »

alpineer

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2013, 09:10:32 AM »
The Tresse Bowline on a Bight makes a rock solid twin-eye knot.

X1

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2013, 12:54:45 PM »
The Tresse Bowline on a Bight makes a rock solid twin-eye knot.
 
   ANY of the many safe bowlines we have can be tied on a bight, i.e. as a double line knots, and be rock-solid ! That is what I was trying to say : We have more double eye (= two eye ) bowlines than we will ever be able to compare and test...keeping this slooow pace we compare and test knots !  :) Why one has to chose the Karash or the Tresse double eyeknots ? Until we will manage to make up our mind, in the same situation Buridan s ass has placed itself, our poor friend would be swimming against the tide s current !  :)  (1)
   
   1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan's_ass

knot4u

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2013, 05:25:55 PM »
This is not a situation where security is going to be an issue with any of the knots selected. So, the recommendation should be based on easy of remembrance, functionality, ease of tying under stress, and other factors. The knot selection selection should be one that you know RIGHT NOW without looking it up.  If you are a knot person and you have to go look up a loop, then that is not a good knot to recommend. If you didn't remember, then you can't expect somebody else to remember it, especially if the person does not study knots as much as you do.

By the way, apparently the Karash Double Loop (KDL) is a type of Bowline and is not a new invention. According to Wikipedia, the discussion is on this site somewhere. I throw that out there because some people seem to be unwilling to use a knot if it's not a type of Bowline.

Also, Google led me to published results of strength tests of various loops, including the KDL. It wasn't hard to find. I am not posting the link here because I think the results have little relevance here. Also, the KDL did quite well on the test, and so I don't want the discussion to stray off into irrelevant arguments about why the test is unreliable. Like security, strength is not much of a determining factor for recommendation, especially if you had to go look the knot up to remember it.  All the knots recommended here are strong enough and secure enough. It should be pretty obvious if a knot discussed here does not have a minimal level of security or strength.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 05:49:07 PM by knot4u »

X1

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 05:50:54 PM by X1 »

knot4u

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2013, 06:00:28 PM »
X1, is it asking too much for you to recommend a loop for the situation in the original post? I figure, if you're out there with this guy, you should be able to recommend a good knot in less than 10 seconds. You've had a few days now. So, you should be all good to go.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 06:49:30 PM by knot4u »

X1

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2013, 07:33:39 PM »
X1, is it asking too much for you to recommend a loop for the situation in the original post ? 
  I would nt hesitate to participate in any blah blahing about anything, as you know !  :)  However, I still take a few things very seriously, and I can not enjoy / I can not imagine them, as a "game". I would nt say anything that could be considered as a "recommendation", or even as a learned advice, by somebody on this issue. I am no rescue worker, I do not have any experience of such life threatening situations, I pray I will never have, and I can not speak lightly about the horrible "scenario" of the present thread. In the referred thread/posts, I have written what I did/do when I was/am on board of a sailboat, and have to teach to some members of the crew / visitors a double eye loop - in case it would be needed to help a person on the level of the water. The knot shown there is very easy to remember and to tie ( certainly easier than the Karash double loop !  :) ), it is tiable on two bights and in the bight, and it is the simplest knot I am aware of where, given its simplicity, the two eyes are communicating in such a small degree. If there will be any detailed systematic evaluation of all possible double loops, regarding any required quality, by professional rescue workers who know a zillion things more than I do on this issue, I will be happy to follow their advice !  :) 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 07:34:55 PM by X1 »

knot4u

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2013, 09:01:54 PM »
In my years of studying knots, I've never seen or heard a rescuer compare and contrast knots. They simply say, "Here is the knot to use," and that's that.  What's ironic is that I could post videos of rescuers giving their quick recommendations, but their recommendations are summarily ignored in favor of endless nitpicking. Anyway, rescuers oftentimes aren't using the "best" knot but rather the knot that they remember and that just works every time.

I have not recommended any knot here either, but I did state the knot I would use if I were faced with the decision right now. What's funny is that "easy to remember" is highly subjective. Of all the knots I know, the KDL is one of the easiest to remember. As long as I can remember how to tie a Fig 8 loop, I can remember the KDL.  For me, it's easier to remember than a plain Bowline.  Anyway, I guess everybody's brain works differently.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 09:04:12 PM by knot4u »

X1

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2013, 09:46:16 PM »
In my years of studying knots, I've never seen or heard a rescuer compare and contrast knots.
  I am sure you understand how wrong is this...
   I guess everybody's brain works differently.
  Moreover, after a certain age, somebody s brain find it hard to work, period.  :)  Enjoy youth ! It lasts for a brief second, then it leaves without a notice and does not come back...

Festy

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2013, 10:20:48 PM »
I've been practising the KDL today and I've noticed that every so often I do something wrong because the whole thing slides instead of locking, but I'm damned if I can see where I'm making the error.

Frustrating  :(

X1

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2013, 10:26:49 PM »
I've noticed that every so often I do something wrong
Festy, please; tie the knot shown in
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20408#msg20408
It will take you one minute - five, in the worst case...Tell me if it will ever happen to you to tie it wrongly - because I claim that you can not !  :)

knot4u

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2013, 07:02:38 AM »
I've been practising the KDL today and I've noticed that every so often I do something wrong because the whole thing slides instead of locking, but I'm damned if I can see where I'm making the error.

Frustrating  :(

Pay attention to which side you're flipping the loop over the Fig 8.  You will notice that there is only one way to flip it that makes logical sense.  After you understand, you should not make the error again.

alpineer

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2013, 09:44:48 AM »
Hi Festy,
You're grabbing the wrong part of the Eight when this happens. Be sure to grab that part of the Eight which is directly connected to the Loop.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:02:04 AM by alpineer »