Author Topic: End Bound Water Bowline  (Read 4452 times)

75RR

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End Bound Water Bowline
« on: July 28, 2013, 01:30:05 PM »
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« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 12:07:37 AM by 75RR »

X1

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Re: End Bound Water Bowline
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2013, 03:32:14 PM »
   I am not a great admirer of the "End bound" method of securing the Tail... It seems to me as a spring ready to be unwinded. I prefer to make the "bound", i.e., tie on the eye leg of the Tail the binding round turn around the nipping turn s crossing point, BEFORE the collar, not after it. As the eye leg of the Tail side goes "upwards", to meet the Standing end and to collar it, it can make this 360 degree around the rim of the bowline and its crossing point. This works as a local L shaped deflection on the otherwise straight eye leg s path to the collar, so the forces on the collar itself are alleviated. Moreover, THIS round turn, this "bound", has to remain tight at all time, because it is loaded by both its ends / limbs. On the contrary, the "End" bound can remain slag, as it is loaded only from its one end / limb.
    I have called those bowlines as "Link" or "Linked" bowlines (1). The best one is probably the Lee Zep X bowline - but the other shown in the mentioned post are interesting, too.
   Do you want the Clove to remain Clovsed ? Tie a Double Collar Water bowline - that is, do to the Clove hitch - based bowline the same that is done in the Girth-hitch based one, in the "Mirrored" bowline : a fine, easy to remember and to tie, most secure bowline. The fact that it is a little bulky can not erase its other advantages.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4314.0
 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 03:34:56 PM by X1 »

SS369

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Re: End Bound Water Bowline
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2013, 04:32:56 PM »
I don't think "End Bound" is a terrific moniker. Almost all the security enhancements to the bowline involve binding the tail somehow.

Maybe "tail round-turn bound" is more germane.

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roo

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Re: End Bound Water Bowline
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 04:54:41 PM »
The Water Bowline, viewed by many as the ugly sister of ABoK bowlines due to the rather loose nature of the Clove Hitch at its heart,
The clove hitch can be tightened.  Which ABoK bowline can even come close to the security of the Water Bowline?  This supposed "loose nature" doesn't hurt it. 

How about we start comparing how long it takes to untie knots by shaking knots by hand or hitting them on the ground/wall and recording the time for a given rope type?  Keep your hands say 30 diameters from the knot body and dress and set the knot as best as humanly possible before commencement.  Conduct the tests with the knot pointing in different directions.  Tail length of around 20 diameters may be a good standard.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 01:20:45 AM by roo »
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SS369

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Re: End Bound Water Bowline
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 05:20:49 PM »
I don't think "End Bound" is a terrific moniker.

Have a word with Dan_Lehman, his variation - his call.

Though I have to say: "tail round-turn bound" is not an improvement!

I agree in part 75RR, but at least it gives some distinction to what is happening and how.

I'll welcome Dan's weighing in and offer anything he has in mind to this, then we can go from there if wanted.

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SS369

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Re: End Bound Water Bowline
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 05:33:55 PM »
Quote
(snip from roo) The clove hitch can be tightened. 
This supposed "loose nature" doesn't hurt it. 
Which ABoK bowline can even come close to the security of the Water Bowline?

I think that blanket statement "This supposed "loose nature" doesn't hurt it. ", concerning the water bowline surviving your slack shaking (if you were indeed including it?) is undermined by the particular media it is tied in. Using a stiff old rope it just doesn't hold. Shake it a few times and you can pull the tail right out..
And I believe that there are many "bowlines" in ABoK that will pass the security test as well, if not better.

And then there are, simple, devised methods that make it so much more secure.

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 06:27:34 PM by SS369 »

knot4u

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Re: End Bound Water Bowline
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2013, 05:45:56 PM »
Given a rope material that tends not to hold anything, is it a good rule of thumb to shift one's mindset and tie a knot that otherwise tends to jam? For example, an Overhand Loop or a Figure Eight Loop may, in that particular instance, be a preferable option.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 05:46:45 PM by knot4u »

SS369

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Re: End Bound Water Bowline
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2013, 05:55:22 PM »
Given a rope material that tends not to hold anything, is it a good rule of thumb to shift one's mindset and tie a knot that otherwise tends to jam? For example, an Overhand Loop or a Figure Eight Loop may, in that particular instance, be a preferable option.

It could be preferable, depending on what the "permanent" use might be.
I personally would like to recover the rope from the knot, most of the time. ;-)

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Dan_Lehman

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Re: End Bound Water Bowline
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2013, 09:28:45 PM »
Given a rope material that tends not to hold anything, is it a good rule of thumb to shift one's mindset and tie a knot that otherwise tends to jam? For example, an Overhand Loop or a Figure Eight Loop may, in that particular instance, be a preferable option.
The behavior of a knot in a particular material needs
to be checked with those particulars --what might jam
in one case might be not all so secure in another vs.
a rather loose knot.  E.g., a sort of water bowline --but in
cow rather than clove relation-- held in bare Spectra (HMPE)
where a double bowline slipped, and maybe so too
would some jamming knots?!
.:.  Beware generalizations!


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X1

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Re: End Bound Water Bowline
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2013, 09:48:34 PM »
.:.  Beware generalizations  !
...but not hate or be afraid of them either !  :)