Author Topic: Saving life knot  (Read 9593 times)

Festy

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Saving life knot
« on: July 25, 2013, 04:14:51 PM »
You're friend is trapped at the bottom of a cliff and the tide is coming in. He is uninjured, so you are going to throw him down a rope with a loop tied in it so he can put it around himself to be lifted up to safety.

Which knot would you form this loop with, that will be safe and secure (will not spill, reform or collapse no matter what forces are exerted on it), and is easy to tie properly?

Cheers,
F

roo

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2013, 04:18:09 PM »
You're friend is trapped at the bottom of a cliff and the tide is coming in. He is uninjured, so you are going to throw him down a rope with a loop tied in it so he can put it around himself to be lifted up to safety.

Which knot would you form this loop with, that will be safe and secure (will not spill, reform or collapse no matter what forces are exerted on it), and is easy to tie properly?

Cheers,
F
Here are some options:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/triplebowline.html

One option is discussed in the last paragraph.

However, if time is limited, and the rope is barely long enough, you might have to settle for a simple loop for the person's foot and hope they can hold on.   ;)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 12:20:46 AM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2013, 06:34:05 PM »
Karash Double Loop.  That's at the top of my head right now, and it's second nature to me.

The more important consideration is the anchor at the top.  If you lose the rope up top, your friend has a good chance of dying.  However, if you have a good anchor up top and throw down just the rope, his life is not over at that point.  He could tie a suitable knot, or you could pull the rope back up and tie something.

Depending on how strong your friend is, you might tie a series of stopper knots for him to climb the rope.  I could ascend a rope in this manner if I'm not already exhausted.  My daily workout includes doing pull-ups.

If your friend is not strong, you have to consider how you are pulling your friend up.  Are you using a car?  If not, you may consider using a Trucker Hitch to obtain a mechanical advantage to get your friend up.  Your friend acts like the first anchor in the Trucker Hitch.  The rock (or whatever) up top is the second anchor.  For example, you tie a Karash Double Loop (or whatever) in the standing end, loop the rope around the second anchor (rock), tie a Span Loop in the line at the appropriate location, loop the working end through the Span Loop, and then send down to your friend the standing end, which includes the Karash Double Loop (or whatever).

EDIT: Another option for mechanical advantage is to rig a Spanish Windlass somehow.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 11:35:11 AM by knot4u »

SS369

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2013, 12:28:39 AM »
You're friend is trapped at the bottom of a cliff and the tide is coming in. He is uninjured, so you are going to throw him down a rope with a loop tied in it so he can put it around himself to be lifted up to safety.

Which knot would you form this loop with, that will be safe and secure (will not spill, reform or collapse no matter what forces are exerted on it), and is easy to tie properly?

Cheers,
F

Hello Festy.

I am hesitant to suggest any particular loop for rescue scenarios, so many variables to consider (!).
I will say that if your victim is not going to give aid in the ascent then a three loop combination should be considered. One double loop knot for the legs (one loop per leg) and one loop for the chest (under arms) area to keep the person vertical during your lifting them.
In fact, I would offer this same suggestion if they were going to climb a bit.

Most importantly, the tyer should know what they are doing! Double/triple checking what they are going to lower down. And it will have to make sense to the recipient so they can apply it.

SS

knot4u

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2013, 10:53:28 AM »
I edited my last post to include another option for mechanical advantage. By the way, this does seem like the more difficult problem to solve. After you throw down the rope, then what?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 10:55:20 AM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2013, 02:53:39 PM »
I edited my last post to include another option for mechanical advantage. By the way, this does seem like the more difficult problem to solve. After you throw down the rope, then what?
Festy seems to omit that issue for now, but it's possible that you'd have multiple people in an emergency rescue helping with the weight.
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Festy

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2013, 03:36:20 PM »
Ok guys, just to expand the scenario a bit:

As it happens there is the complete membership of a tug-of-war team  ;D with me at the top of the cliff, so no worries about hauling him up, but I'm the only one who can tie the knot.

My pal at the bottom of the cliff cannot tie knots either, but he is uninjured and very fit so he will be able to assist in his rescue.

The tide is coming in and in fact is already up to his knees, so when I throw down the rope to him it most likely will get wet.

I will tie the loop around myself before I throw it down to ensure it will be a snug fit for him (he's my twin brother)  ;)

Now the question is; which knot should I use to create the loop. It must be easy to remember to tie, be very safe and secure, easy to untie afterwards (the tug-of-war team own the rope) and no matter what forces happen to be applied during the rescue it must have no tendency to collapse, spill, untie or jam. Remember now, just 1 loop only!

And thanks for all the replies so far.

Cheers guys,
F


roo

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2013, 04:25:19 PM »
Now the question is; which knot should I use to create the loop. It must be easy to remember to tie, be very safe and secure, easy to untie afterwards (the tug-of-war team own the rope) and no matter what forces happen to be applied during the rescue it must have no tendency to collapse, spill, untie or jam. Remember now, just 1 loop only!
A number of loops could satisfy your requirements:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html

Using only one loop will make things more precarious for the victim.  I'm not sure where you plan on putting this one loop on the person's body, but you might try it on yourself first.  You may be surprised at how uncomfortable it can be.  Also, if the strain on the rope isn't too high, jamming may not necessarily be a big problem if you wanted to use other knots.

One advantage of using something that approximates a body harness is that it more easily allows the victim to assist in climbing if conditions permit.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 04:48:36 PM by roo »
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SS369

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2013, 12:25:38 AM »
Friends don't let friends not know knots!

Since you've refined the qualifications of this explorative post to a single loop, I would go with a single bowline with a simple lock. Maybe a Portuguese style bowline where the loop is augmented with round turns to help spread the load over a wider chest area. Not truly a multiple loop knot, imo, and adding a simple lock.

The loop would have to be sized to fit the chest area and not be able to pass the arm's pits under load.
It will be extremely uncomfortable and dangerous to your friend, so I am hoping the situation allows for the rope to be just a backup to that person's climbing to safety.

If one of your tug o war buddies ( get them tied off as well) should happen to dislodge a rock and it dings the victim in the head and he gets knocked unconscious, at least he will be head up for the remainder of this folly.

This is not a recommendation by any means, just an exploration of a hypothetical scenario.
If real, You will be liable in the event of failure or injury, regardless of claimed friendship.

Friends don't let friends not know knots!

SS

knot4u

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2013, 01:11:23 AM »
I can't recommend what you should tie, but I would still tie the Karash Double Loop with a Bowline for around the waist.  After at least one year of not tying it, I still know how to do it.  So, I'd say it is committed to memory.  This video describes it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EyfYyJkZss

EDIT:  Wait.  What?  Just one loop only?  Sorry, I can't help you.  You're talking about a single loop of rope, not a thick car tire.  That is going to be painful and dangerous for your twin.  I'd prefer to tie a series of stopper knots for him to climb up before I yank him up on a single loop.  After all, you did say he's very fit.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 01:22:02 AM by knot4u »

TMCD

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2013, 02:10:09 AM »
A single loop knot won't do the job. A good multi loop option would be the triple bowline and it's EASY to tie and remember which is ultra critical in your described situation. It can be tied at the end of a rope or in the middle of a rope. The triple bowline can be made into a full harness, do I win the prize?

Wed

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2013, 02:33:05 AM »
In reality, you would let the friend perish. Not knowing which knot is the right one to tie is worse than even the most lenient of lawyers.

I am ever so slightly sarcastic of course. If all else fail, ie. getting professional help, please do what you can to rescue the poor bugger.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 02:34:12 AM by Wed »

knot4u

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2013, 03:44:30 PM »
Would a triple Bowline really work well in this situation? I can see how a loop around each leg helps. However, what good is the third loop if it's not tight around the torso? If it's loose, does the third loop do anything besides confuse your friend?

Also, you can't get the third loop tight if you tie it beforehand, right? This goes for any triple loop, even the harness I describe above.

Has anyone here tried lifting themselves in the air by using a double or triple loop? This is an interesting enough problem that I'll be doing some experimenting...
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 04:07:04 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2013, 03:55:54 PM »
This is a fun mental exercise, but realistically there is going to be more equipment than just a rope, given the facts. For example, somebody (or everybody) is going to have a backpack. Any competent knot tier should be able to rig a harness using the rope and backpack(s) so that your twin can be lifted in First Class comfort.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 04:08:21 PM by knot4u »

Festy

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Re: Saving life knot
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2013, 04:41:20 PM »
Guys, I've tried the single loop situation in my yard using 8 mil rope and I must say it's very uncomfortable as some have pointed out. However, if your life was at stake, and with adrenalin running high, it might be a different story perhaps.

Nonetheless, we will abandon the single loop exercise because SS369 threw a spanner in the works when he posited the loose boulder falling and rendering my poor twin brother unconscious scenario.

Therefore, two loops or three loops now seems to be the choice, nobody present has a backpack or similar so the successful rescue has to depend on the rope alone.

So, what method to use? The Karash Double loop? the triple bowline? Some combination, that once in position, will allow him to be be hauled to safety, conscious or unconscious.

And remember, it must be tied/preassembled by me, at the top of the cliff.

I'm depending on you, my learned friends, to point me in the right direction!  ;)