Author Topic: Analysis of Bowlines paper uploaded for review and comment (PACI website)  (Read 197299 times)

knotsaver

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I'm not sure if I like you anymore knotsaver... :)

You are causing me to further extend the length of my Bowlines paper - and hence, further push back the completion date.  :o

I'm sorry Mark ;), but you asked for comments :) ... I think it's because of the time zone :)
(you are welcome).

I have to admit that I didn't know about the TIB capable Bowline with strangled double overhand lock on returning eye leg. And your interesting TIB tying solution.

Neither did I!
Please try tying the double overhand lock on the ongoing eye-leg, I will post some pictures as soon as I can.
I've tied a TIB Bowline with a girt hitch collar (a 'complex' collar, is it a Bowline?) and with the tail exiting through the collar, is it a known knot? I think it's interesting... I will post a picture.

EDIT: I wonder if I am 'allowed' to post Xarax's comments re TIB Bowlines on this forum? I am unclear what the IGKT moderators rules are for me acting as a 'proxy' for Xarax?

I miss Xarax ('s comments) on this forum! :(
--

ciao,
s.

knotsaver

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For those Bowlines which are proven to be TIB - do they all have the tail exiting through the collar and then along a parallel pathway with the Spart?
In other words, is it possible for a Bowline to be TIB - with the tail not exiting via the collar?

What about ABoK #1074?
How do we consider it? (Ashley named it Bowline with a bight).
(BTW, the eye of the Bowline could enter the bight and we could tighten the bight)
ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 08:48:36 AM by knotsaver »

Dan_Lehman

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For those Bowlines [that] are proven to be TIB ,
 do they all have the tail exiting through the collar ...

This is what I am trying to confirm or disprove!

Mark G
This is simply shown to be false.  Browse ABoK and you'll
see some, if not making your own, per recipe of the question.


--dl*
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knotsaver

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Please try tying the double overhand lock on the ongoing eye-leg, I will post some pictures as soon as I can.

attached pictures:
TIB Bowline with strangled double overhand lock on the returning and on the ongoing eyeleg.
The knots are not so nice, they are a little bit bulky...but they are TIB! :)
--

BTW the TIB method to tie the knot is simple..

We can "improve"  (?!) the method using a generic TIB Hitch (for the nipping loop [and for the collar])

- Tie a (an obviously TIB) noose
- with the (slipping) SPart tie a TIB Hitch (the future nipping loop) around the  eye of the noose
[<optional> - with the eye of the noose tie a TIB Hitch (this will be the complex collar)]
- back-flip the [TIB Hitch formed with the] eye of the noose
- form the eye of the Bowline (use the nipping loop to find the ongoing eye-leg)

you will find the structure (the nub) of the noose around the returning eye-leg (or, reversed, around the ongoing eye-leg) of the new locked TIB Bowline.
--

I've tied a TIB Bowline with a girt hitch collar (a 'complex' collar, is it a Bowline?) and with the tail exiting through the collar, is it a known knot? I think it's interesting... I will post a picture.

the knot I've tied is a single eye version of a knot suggested by Tex at
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5385.msg36531#msg36531

At
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4343.msg29871#msg29871
there is a Bowline with a Clove Hitch collar (posted by SS369)
but without retucking the tail trhough the Clove Hitch.
--

About the TIB Bowline with the tail exiting/not exiting via the collar, I think the simplest (and maybe the best) are those with the tail exiting via the collar, to obtain the others (with tail not exiting via the collar) we have to use a slipped loop/bight with the tail somewhere.

--
A question: (about the Bowlines) is it important the concept of midline TIBness (I can use both ends) and end of line (end of a rope) TIBness?
--

ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 05:03:46 PM by knotsaver »

Dan_Lehman

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--
A question: (about the Bowlines) is it important the concept of midline TIBness (I can use both ends) and end of line (end of a rope) TIBness?
--
A good point, and there are four cases:
1) TIB (for use with just one end qua SPart)
2)    "   with either end usable qua SPart ("EEL", was it?))
3)    "  as in #1 but also allowing "through (end-2-end)" loading
          (making what is called a "directional eye knot")
4)   "   as in #2 with #3's addition.

The butterfly knot is generally regarded to meet #4's demands,
and the directional fig.8 #3's,
with the bowline on a bight #2's
and my "hilarious bowline" just #1's.


--dl*
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knotsaver

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Thank you, Dan_Lehman!
I'm sorry but I've not found the hilarious bowline...
Could you show it, please?
thanks.
Ciao,
s.

Dan_Lehman

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Thank you, Dan_Lehman!
I'm sorry but I've not found the hilarious bowline...
Could you show it, please?
thanks.
Ciao,
s.
I will *tell it* (again), for now.

rope runs from right-to-left (SPart right, to-become-eye left),
making the nipping loop with a clockwise turn,
crossing point at bottom (6:00),
on-going eye leg crossing OVER SPart;

at suitable length for eye, make the U-turn ANTI-clockwise
so to bring returning eye-leg back below & beside on-going
one, and crossing back over SPart;

at which point, turn this working end clockwise down
under the SPart (and now, roughly, pointing down from 6:00).

HERE, there is a choice :: to make hilarious bowline
or a similar one (described after...).

FOR H.B., take the working end around (continue
clockwise) OVER the adjacent eye legs;

and now, form a bight and tuck this in through the nipping
loop, from back to front (i.e., towards view) --so, crossing
9:00-ish side of loop UNDER and bring bight out from that.
The substance of the bight --the material bulk and resistance
to being bent/folded-- is what is hoped to keep the nipping
loop *loopish* and not opening (too much) into a helix.
So, dress & set the knot accordingly, working to minimze
the collaring of the eye legs, hauling on the bight end to
get this snugged, which will tend to rotate the nipping loop
opposite the direction it will want to move when loaded,
which is towards opening into a helix --a little of which might
be fine for the situation (YMMV).
.:.  This is a knot that looks fine for putting in an eye w/o ends,
and maybe *instructive* about knot strength in having the
SPart in a curvature of diminishing radius (something that might
obtain more in some materials than others).


That other-like-knot choice would have one form a bight
at the decision point (working end at the 6:00 area after
turning around the SPart), and tucking out through the
loop immediately, front to back (away from view).
AND THEN, though, one must draw the eye through the
tucked bight and snug the latter around it, which will give
more sure resistance of the SPart opening into a helix,
though it can do so, depending on materials and so on.

In the H.B., one might be able to untie it by simply pulling
on the tail and spilling the tucked bight --though it wasn't
the point of the tucking, which was need (TIB) and bulk.

Generalizing the tying *aspects*/techniques/... presented
above can lead to many more such eye knots, and some
look great (there might be elements of immodesty showing ...).  ;)


--dl*
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knotsaver

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I will *tell it* (again), for now.

Thanks (again) Dan!
If I'm right this should be the Hilarious Bowline (look at the pictures)
If the eye enters the bight and then we back-flip the bight, the obtained Bowline should meet #4's demands (as the butterfly), am I right?

Ciao,
s.

Dan_Lehman

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Yes, nearly :: in the original --which might have no
claim to preference; just noting the fact--, the tucked
bight didn't have crossed legs, so the curving SPart
reached farthest and *bit* into the tail-leg of this bight.

NB: in the version as you set it, the SPart's loop is well
oriented against being a helix --it has some movement
to give, and still be *loop* (so, you show the desired
setting).  Loading surely will turn you loop more into
the plane with axis of tension, and then maybe beyond
that, towards the helix'd state.

As for your backflipped variation, I'm not following this
to get similar look :: yours shows still a collar around
the eye legs, but that is what was to be backflipped?!
(or I need to scrutinize the images better!)


Thanks, (for evidence that words CAN work!)
--dl*
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agent_smith

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Just advising that I have uploaded VER 2.6 of the Bowlines paper.

All password restrictions have been removed.

Hopefully the 2 new pages on TIB are acceptable content?
I have only provided an overview of TIB - it is not intended to be exhaustive...

Mark

knotsaver

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:: to make hilarious bowline

Dan,
the Hilarious Bowline is substantially a reversed slipped Tugboat A!
[Edit] or, better, a slipped Harness Loop (Artilleryman's Knot, ABoK #1050) (the reversed Tugboat A and the Harness Loop have the same structure). [/Edit]
--

As for your backflipped variation, yours shows still a collar around the eye legs, but that is what was to be backflipped?!

Thanks, (for evidence that words CAN work!)


The back-flipped collar is on the right in the picture (remember in my version the legs of the bight were crossed)... I should attach a better picture...
The instructions were clear!  ;)

Just advising that I have uploaded VER 2.6 of the Bowlines paper.
Hopefully the 2 new pages on TIB are acceptable content?

Thank you Mark!
please, notice that you repeat the same phrases at p. 12 and p. 13.
--
Ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 02:44:10 PM by knotsaver »

agent_smith

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VER 2.6a (23 April 2016) is uploaded.

Thanks knotsaver - you have a good eye for typos / errors.

Hopefully this is good to go now?

I want to be done/finished with this project...!

Mark

Dan_Lehman

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The back-flipped collar is on the right in the picture (remember in my version the legs of the bight were crossed)... I should attach a better picture...
The instructions were clear!  ;)
Are you starting with H.B. then?
--and not the "immediately tucked" bight of the
variation as I presented (where the tucking goes
in the opposite direction, and the eye-tucking thus
is necessary for integrity)?!


--dl*
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knotsaver

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Are you starting with H.B. then?

Yes, it was referring to the H.B.

VER 2.6a (23 April 2016) is uploaded.
Thanks knotsaver - you have a good eye for typos / errors.
Hopefully this is good to go now?
I want to be done/finished with this project...!

Mark, two typos:
p.13 ln.1 "..TIB be tucking.." is "TIB by tucking" (isn't it?)
p.16 the 'Anti Bowline? (refer to page 38)
--
about the TIB Bwl with strangled double overhand, is the external curve made by the tail irksome/insecure? have you considered the double overhand tied around the ongoing eye leg (with the tail towards the nub)? as I showed at reply #453
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4480.msg38584#msg38584
--
About the Myrtle... no, no... I'm joking! :D

Ciao,
s.



« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 04:58:27 PM by knotsaver »

Dan_Lehman

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Quote
Dan Lehman reported that the TIB concept most likely began circa 1987 through the work of two innovators ? John Smith
and Pieter van de Griend ? and was reported in ?Knotting Matters? issue #19.
Rather than the "TIB concept" being cited, it was the
particular bowline shown in the document newly crediting
me with "Lehman's lock" --'twasn't mine (first).
(If anything, I've beat Alan to one of his locks, and
stand unique in the EBDB loop-locking --but I seek
no recognition for either (and am pretty sure that
where I got the Lee-like overhand finishing lock
it was in slightly different bowlines (i.p., in a later
case, a double-eye variation, which is also TIB).)

There is one new and should-be-excised "larks foot"
vice "larkshead" --let's NOT echo the Brit's mistake!
(p.24).

--dl*
====