Analysis of Bowlines paper uploaded for review and comment (PACI website)

[agent_smith]

Thanks Alan - a mind boggling collection of knots!

You have given me a lot of work to do...

I am going to have to do special index finger exercises to get it into shape for shooting numerous photos with my camera. I am glad we are in the digital age - I remember growing up with traditional film cameras and having to send it off to Kodak to get developed and not knowing the results (not to mention the cost of developing and printing photos).

I will be away for a few days and will not have internet access (June 06-08).

I just hope that I can do justice to your good work by providing high quality images...

[xarax]

   Personally, I like two more variations of the Lee s Eskimo 8 bowline, shown at the attached pictures.
   Beautiful knots !

[alpineer]

The poor knot tyers known as climbers use this knot as a harness tie-in. They call it a re-traced or re-threaded bowline for what should be obvious reasons - although my preferred term for knots tied in this manner is "twinned".

[xarax]

   I am impressed !  The climbers know ABoK#1080 ? Ouaou ! THAT is why they manage to remain alive ! 
   ( alpineer, I believe you could had found a better joke...)

   P.S. However, I would like to learn how they tie it - do they tie it in-the-end, or in-the-bight ? And, if they tie it in-the-bight, which of the many methods they choose to follow ? Tying it in-the-end, is conceptually simpler, and can be done almost blindly - on the other hand, tying the ABoK#1080 in the bight and then retucking the tail ( in order to achieve a wider, 3-rope-diameters nipping loop - if they do that retucking ) is quicker ! I am interested in learning what do knot users prefer, a simpler or a quicker method ?

[alpineer]

   I am impressed !  The climbers know ABoK#1080 ? Ouaou ! THAT is why they manage to remain alive ! 
   ( alpineer, I believe you could had found a better joke...)

   P.S. However, I would like to learn how they tie it - do they tie it in-the-end, or in-the-bight ? And, if they tie it in-the-bight, which of the many methods they choose to follow ? Tying it in-the-end, is conceptually simpler, and can be done almost blindly - on the other hand, tying the ABoK#1080 in the bight and then retucking the tail ( in order to achieve a wider, 3-rope-diameters nipping loop - if they do that retucking ) is quicker ! I am interested in learning what do knot users prefer, a simpler or a quicker method ?

Someone isn't looking/reading here. No, not ABoK #1080, which is tied on the Bight, whereas what Lee shows is tied with the End. The term "In-the-end" is improper, which implies tying in-the-bight near the end of the rope, which may be what you are implying. As for re-tucking the tail, I've not seen it done.

[xarax]

Someone is nt looking / reading here, indeed ! 

tying the ABoK#1080 in the bight and then retucking the tail ( in order to achieve a wider, 3-rope-diameters nipping loop )

If you know how they tie it, tell it... The one way ( I had described ) or the other ( I had described, too ? )
WHO told you that if a knot can be tied in-the-bight, it can not be tied in-the-end, too ? 

Why are you falling in every next pitfall, I really dont know...
Sugar and oxygen ! 

P.S. In-the-end, is Ashley s term, used in ABoK dozens of times - which does not mean what you mean...

[xarax]

   Personally, I would tie it in-the-bight, and then retuck the Tail End through the nipping loop - and I would tie it faster than if I had tied it in-the-end, by retracing a common bowline - but this is perhaps due to my TIB-mania...  I really do not know what most knot users would choose.

[alpineer]

Here's a hint, if you'd care to read it.

They call it a re-traced or re-threaded bowline

p.s. Stop hovering over your keyboard. I can't pound as fast as you.

[xarax]

   Yes, I have seen that - but sometimes the fig.8 knot is called retraced fig.8., without this meaning that it should be tied only that way, and not in-the-bight. Tie it in-the-bight all the way till the re-tucking of the Tail End, and measure the time you need. I believe you, too, will tie it faster than in-the-end.

P.S. I had a very good teacher, dL ! 

[SS369]

Climbers will tie their "tie in" eye knot using the working end, unless they connecting to a carabiner.
The Fig.8 tie in eye requires to first locate where to pre-tie a Fig.8, go through the harness loop (and leg loop), then do the retracing moves to complete the eye portion.

The Bowline is tied with the working end as well, not requiring a pre-tied knot before the eye.

So, unless one is using a connector to clip into, tying with a bight won't work. Unless one wants an unnecessarily bulky knot.

Anchor configurations vary and tying with a bight may be favorable at times.

SS

[alpineer]

Yes, I have seen that - but sometimes the fig.8 knot is called retraced fig.8.

It's a good term, as the Fig.8 is re-traced, not the eye. In the case of the Bowline the whole knot, including the eye, is re-traced. This is why I prefer to call it a twinned bowline.

Tie it in-the-bight all the way till the re-tucking of the Tail End

Because you're not a climber it's forgivable that you mightn't know, or remember, climbers like to tie into their harness "hard" (i.e. sans carabiner). This precludes using the in-the-end method. 

[xarax]

   OK, dear climbers.
   However, I still believe that if you want to tie the knot as a free end-of-line loop, it would be faster, and perhaps less prone to mistakes, to tie it in-the-bight, and retuck the Tail End at the very end. Alan Lee would be able to tie it in less than 5 seconds !
   A comment on a previous post : Ashley uses the term "in-the-end" as opposite ( knotting antonym  ) of the term "in-the-bight". Perhaps it would be more correct, indeed, to use the term "with-an-end", but then this will rhyme with the term "with-a-bight", which is a different thing (1) - the main difference here is the topological difference between TIB and not-TIB knots, so we should better have two terms which will denote knots tiable as TIB and not-tiable as TIB, and this is what the pair of terms "in-the-bight" and "in-the-end" does.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5300.0

[xarax]

   Regarding the re-tucking of an ABoK#1080 end through the nipping loop, I am sure that climbers do not do it for the reason Alan Lee had thought about it ( which was to increase the width of the nipping loop, and the strength of the first curve ), because the strength of their knots is more than adequate for the sizes of their ropes and their loads. Perhaps they do it only because they prefer the resulting orientation of the free end, so it will not run the danger to be pushed back, and out of the nipping loop  ( ? ).

[alpineer]

   OK, dear climbers.
   However, I still believe that if you want to tie the knot as a free end-of-line loop, it would be faster, and perhaps less prone to mistakes, to tie it in-the-bight, and retuck the Tail End at the very end. Alan Lee would be able to tie it in less than 5 seconds !
   

Well, that's an entirely different topic, isn't it.

[SS369]

If there is a consensus to continue using the term "bight" then the two terms, with a bight or in a bight  (both distinctly different terms) works for me.
"With an end" or "using the working end" (equal) works as well.
Being consistent for the sake of effective/efficient communication is the goal.

I am not a fan of using too many acronyms: TIB, TWB, WAE, UWE, etc. Looks like alphabet soup.
 It is easy enough for all of us to "keystroke" a few more letters.   

SS