Author Topic: A simple TIB locked bowline  (Read 23462 times)

X1

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A simple TIB locked bowline
« on: July 11, 2013, 12:06:30 AM »
  A simple TIB / midline "locked" bowline. We can tie it very easily by the same "three bights" general method shown at (1)(2) or at (3).
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27362#msg27362
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27784#msg27784
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27846#msg27846
 

SS369

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 12:35:06 AM »
Hi X1 and thanks for this tangle.

Tying it using some brand new BlueWater ProTac 10.5 mm I find that the tail migrates to an uncrossed position, ultimately positioned parallel to the standing part. At that point I can pull on return leg of the loop and get movement. The rope's composition is stiff as it is a abseiling rope and it seems to resist quite a number of knots from being tightened "super snug". ;-)).

SS

X1

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 03:11:27 AM »
   Thanks SS369,
   So far, I have tied and tried this knot only on this thin 7 mm soft,"decorative", cheap cord, and I had loaded it only after I had already pre-tightened it a little bid - by pulling the tail so it meets the rim of the collar and the standing part at a right angle ( as shown in the picture ). I have seen that, when two adjacent ropes are squeezed upon each other while they meet at a right angle, they "bite" each other much deeper than when they meet at any other acute or obtuse angle. The "dents", the local deformations of the surfaces of the ropes around their contact area, work as "obstacles" that enhance the ordinary friction forces. So, when we want to block the slippage of the tail, we better make it follow a path inside the knot s nub where it meets the other segments at the right angle - the right angle ! 
   The tail of this TIB eyeknot remained at this favourite position even after a heavy, alternating loading by my own body weight, jumping up and down the eye for some time !  :)  I do not know what would had happened on a knot tied on a stiff rope like the one you have used - and if my weight was twice as heavy. and I was jumping twice as high !  :)  Could you, please, try it on the same rope, after some proper pre-tightening, so the tail and the standing part meet each other at a right angle, right from the beginning ?
   

kd8eeh

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 05:27:03 AM »
If you flip the loop end and the tails, this is the same knot as an angler's loop.  The same sort of inversion can be done with any TIB loop, but it makes the knots easier to describe.

X1

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 12:41:50 PM »
If you flip the loop end and the tails, this is the same knot as an angler's loop. 
 
    I do not understand what you mean by this "flipping". Could you, please, explain it to me, or show a picture ?
   This knot is a slightly re-dressed variation of the Lehman s locked bowline. I had not paid any attention to this knot, so I had forgotten it... I met again this most simple TIB locked bowline a few weeks ago, when I was tying any possible knot that can be generated by the "three bights" tying method, in the manner of Span loop, described in (1)-(3) - although this particular one needs a little re-dressing after it is formed that way.
   Although the strands do not follow the optimum path we would have wished, its TIB nature makes us accept it with open arms - because we have such a small number of TIB AND PET eyeknots...

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27362#msg27362
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27784#msg27784
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27824#msg27824
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27846#msg27846
5. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27856#msg27856
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 12:44:09 PM by X1 »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2013, 07:16:53 PM »
If you flip the loop end and the tails, this is the same knot as an angler's loop. 
 
    I do not understand what you mean by this "flipping".
Could you, please, explain it to me, or show a picture ?

He means that if you join the tail to the SPart
and then cut the eye (magically extending the
proper newly-cut end to become new Spart)
you will have *reversed* the approach to the
knot and have now the Perfection loop.
(Do this with the TIB overhand / fig.8 eyeknots
and you get ... the same things!    :D  )

Quote
The same sort of inversion can be done with any TIB loop

Hmmm, I don't see what TIB-ness has to do with it:
one might *see* "new" knots this way from whatever
nub --TIB or not-- one beholds.  --along with other
variations to the loading, beyond this sort of "flipping"!

But to your perhaps intended If Knot_K is TIB,
then so too is Flipped(Knot_K)
proposition, I can
only say that I don't *see* the truth (value) of this,
alas.  (But I believe it's true.)


--dl*
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X1

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2013, 08:28:25 PM »
  I still do not see what does this has to do with anything !  :)
  If we have a TIB tangle, any TIB tangle ( that is, a knot topologically equivalent to the unknot, a concealed tangled straight line...), and we connect the two free ends, we get a tangled closed "loop", topologically equivalent to a ring. Now, if we cut this tangled closed loop anywhere ( i.e., cut a bight somewhere, so we get two new ends - any bight, anywhere in the tangle, not only the bight that happened to be the eye of the eye-knot ), and we hold those two new ends, so they do not get entangled within the remaining tangle of which they are now the new ends, this remaining tangle would be topologically equivalent to the unknot, of course...If we connect again those two new ends, we get a tangle again topologically equivalent to a ring, and if we cut again this tangled ring / closed loop, anywhere, we get again two new ends, and a tangled straight line between them, etc...Perhaps I am missing something obvious...but what I see seems also obvious !  :)  Cutting a topologically equivalent to a ring "closed" tangle, we get a topologically equivalent to a straight line "open" tangle - and if we connect the ends of this later, we get something as the former, etc.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 08:34:47 PM by X1 »

kd8eeh

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2013, 05:25:08 AM »
I don't see it as effecting the function of any knot.  Topology tells us both loops are tib, which can sometimes be a good way to develop "new" knots, however i mostly point out that this is the flipped version of an anglers loop as an easy way to describe the knot.  I discovered this knot some time ago by tracing another angler's loop and trying to untie it.  From how i tie it, there are many similar tib bowlines that can be made, several which i prefer to this one (formed by twisting the loop of the slipknot different amounts different directions and then passing it throught on either side).  It may be the same method X1 described, but i find it simpler to understand.

Also, can someone remind me what PET stands for?

X1

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2013, 10:13:05 AM »

 the flipped version of an anglers loop ... an easy way to describe the knot.
It is a way to "describe" it, indeed -  but not an "easy" one !  :)

there are many similar tib bowlines that can be made
All four of the crossing-knot based bowlines, shown in :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.0
can be tied by the same, "three bights" method, which is the method Ashley ties the span loop. ( The pet loop can be considered as just an improvisation of the span loop. ) Start from two bights formed in the line, the one after the other, at some distance from each other, and make a third bight by the line that is in between them / connects them, the "bridge". Then, pass one bight half way through a second one, from the "front" or the "back" side, and then reeve the remaining third bight all the way through the eye of this half-passed second one, also from the "front" or the "back" side. Some combinations will produce stable bowlines, some will not, but that is the dumb but also quite general way one can generate many simple TIB bowlines. Try it ! ( Also, before you half-pass or reeve one bight through the other, you can twist it 180 degrees around itself, so the possible stable combinations become more..)
Regarding the PET = post-eye-tiable question, click the " Bowline Analysis" in:
http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php
,download the paper, and do your homework:) :)
 
 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 12:11:58 AM by X1 »

kd8eeh

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2013, 05:21:44 AM »
I was thinking of some knots like this one, with the tail parallel to the standing part and both ends wrapped together in a single collar.  They are inevitably less secure, as the tail is not secured as well, but they can be loaded by the tail and still be a reasonable knot.  In both configurations it is easy to untie, and most of them are also PET both ways.

X1

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2013, 06:23:46 AM »
most of them are also PET both ways.
  However, they can not be stable enough when loaded both ways. Start from all the possible configurations, where the crossing knot is used as the nipping structure and the nipping turn as the ( crossed-bight ) collar, load them the other way, and see what happens :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3467
Re-arrange the Standing end and the Tail in your knot, and get the TIB ABoK#1051 :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4428.msg28003#msg28003
 

X1

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How to tie the Lehman s locked bowline in the bight.
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2013, 12:54:20 PM »
   Starting from a slipped overhand knot, and proceeding to the stage we have reeved the one bight through the other - so the first became the eye of the eye-knot, and the other the collar around the Standing end + Tail pair.
   
   ( I ask the Moderator to move this thread to a proper section. When I first published it, I have forgotten the Lehman s locked bowline. I simply tied all the possible PET eye-knots that can be tied with the 3-bights method, and this bowline was one of them, dressed not as a crossing knot-based eye-knot, but as an ordinary nipping turn-based bowline. It was only later, when I had the opportunity to re-view the "Analysis..." paper and saw the Lehman s locked bowline again, that I had made the obvious identification.)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 12:56:47 PM by X1 »

SS369

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Re: How to tie the Lehman s locked bowline in the bight.
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2013, 02:27:15 PM »
   Snip: I ask the Moderator to move this thread to a proper section.

Where would you like it moved to?

SS

xarax

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2013, 02:04:27 PM »
   I ask the Moderator to move this thread to a proper section.

Where would you like it moved to ?

   Hmmm, I really do not know !  :)
   The knot is a known simple locked bowline, so it is a practical knot, no question about that. However, the TIB tying method described, although simple, is much more complex than the knot itself ! I doubt that one would ever tie this knot this way, even if he has to tie a TIB bowline - he would probably chose something else.
   Personally, I would tie a pet loop, perhaps because I have been brain-washed by it some time now !  :) Other people may prefer to tie the very interesting, very secure two bight component TIB Reversed Jug sling bowline ( or "Coming and going" bowline )(1), by the method shown in (2). Notice that both those bowlines can be considered as PET eye-knots based on a crossing knot nipping structure, not a "proper" Common bowline nipping turn. However, I do not see any disadvantage in a stable, safe crossing knot-based bowline - on the contrary, I believe that their great inherent stability ( which alleviates a great portion of the burden of the bight component to keep the nipping component "closed", so it does not open up and degenerates into an open helix ), have not appreciated as much as they deserve by the knot tyers.
   So, we have a known practical knot, and a not-so-practical TIB method to tie it - and a thread that describes those two things...Where should we put it ?
 
1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4336.msg29186#msg29186
2.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqh3-uC94aA
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 04:12:06 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2013, 02:39:44 PM »
Quote
    So, we have a known practical knot, and a not-so-practical TIB method to tie it - and a thread that describes those two things...Where should we put it ?

Seems like an exploration to me.
Anybody concur?

SS