Author Topic: Another PET TIB loop  (Read 6751 times)

X1

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Another PET TIB loop
« on: June 12, 2013, 04:23:45 PM »
   When the segments of the rope inside a knot s nub meet at a right angle, they "bite" each other deeper than when this angle is acute - and they almost "slide" on each other when the angle becomes zero, i.e. when the segments are parallel. This is due to the fact that all ropes are more or less "compressible", they do not retain their circular cross section under a local squeeze - so the surfaces of two rope segments that are squeezed upon each other form local "dents" , deformations of their mutual contact area that enhance the friction forces between them.
   I had tried to tie a post-eye-tiable TIB loop where the segments of the "nipping structure" meet the segments of the "collar structure" at right angles. At the attached pictures one can distinguish the "over" / "under" weaving pattern of the segments of this eyeknot. This would be an "indication", at least, that the tail is nipped efficiently, and that the knot is secure. The finished knot reminds the Angler s loop - although the Angler s loop jams, and it is not post-eye-tiable. I have not been able to jam the loop presented here, probably because one can always untie all those TIB loops by manipulating the ever present collar around their eye legs.
   The TIB tying method is very simple, similar to the bights-reeved-through-bights method of many TIB single and double loops shown by Ashley. I do not post pictures of it here, with a hope that the interested reader will first tie this loop in the end, and then untie it by pulling out any reeved bight that can be pulled out at each stage  :) .This way, he/she will follow the same steps needed to tie it, only in the reversed order.

SS369

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2013, 01:58:58 AM »
Nice "toggled" eye knot.
I super snugged it up and it looks to be nicely secure.
Loosely tied I can see the standing part draw up to the "toggled" tail to inhibit further motion within the central nub actually leaving the collar part to stay relatively loose.
It looks like the area of greatest strain/stress is at the half wrap of the eye's legs.

Using 1/4 inch solid nylon braid I found the super snugged attempt easy to untie by pulling the eye legs apart from each other.
That of course is not a great thing with respect to ring-loading, but with tension applied it should be acceptable around a large diameter.
The capsized, then tightened form is interesting though. ;-)

SS

« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 02:15:55 AM by SS369 »

X1

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2013, 04:19:43 AM »
I found the super snugged attempt easy to untie by pulling the eye legs apart from each other.
That of course is not a great thing with respect to ring-loading, but with tension applied it should be acceptable around a large diameter.

   This is the greatest advantage and disadvantage of all those TIB loops !  :) There is always a collar involved, tied around the eye legs ( if you think about it, you will see that this is direct consequence of the loop being as TIB - the eye of the loop has to be reeved through this former bight / present collar, to "close" the knot ), that : 1. can be manipulated, so a however tight nub can be loosened , but, 2., tend to drag other segments along it, when the two legs of the eye are pulled apart from each other.
   You win some, you lose some !  :) Those loops are versatile, but they are bound to deform under ring loading, because of this ever-present collar around the eye legs.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 07:58:26 PM by X1 »

xarax

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2014, 03:04:28 AM »
   Here is the "reversed" form of this crossing-knot based loop, which, regarding its nipping structure, is a "normal" bowline - and a TIB one, too, of course.
   By dressing it differently, we arrive at the Span crossing-knot loop (A), shown at (1), or even at a variation of the 1 loop, shown at (2). 

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4692.msg30297#msg30297
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4603.msg29705#msg29705
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 03:12:40 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2014, 08:15:48 AM »
Hi All,
       My machine broke down have a day off, spend whole day to working on my knots, very happy come up with 10 loops,
       9 of them are TIB bowline, one is PET loop. 6 of the TIB bowline is here, another 3 TIB bowline going to
       (Knotting Concepts & Explorations ? Retuck the Tail end through the collar - you may end up with a TIB bowline.)
       last one PET loop will post it to( Chit Chat ? Look alike loops).
       
       Xarax since you already have this new tread (Another PET TIB loop),might at well strick your page.
       Just pull test by hand, they seem fine to me, in the furture I will do more test on these loops.
       The first 5 loops can be tie in one continous motion.
       Getting little late of the night, that all I can tell for now.

       謝謝  alan lee
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 04:51:51 AM by eric22 »

alanleeknots

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2014, 08:20:30 AM »

Hi All,  Two more loop here.

xarax

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2014, 11:08:02 AM »
   Welcome to the Land of the TIB bowlines, Alan !  :)
   The third and the fourth loops have very narrow, one-rope-diameter second collars, a feature I do not like : many stiff ropes will not tolerate such sharp U-turns, and the nubs will remain loose at that point. The sixth loop uses an overhand knot as its collar structure - so, under heavy loading, it will probably be prone to jamming.
   The other three loops are very similar, or even identical, to the "right-" and the "left-handed" Alpineer s and Scot s TIB bowlines, shown at (1),(2), and to your second, TIB, loop, at (3). They have wide, three-rope-diameters nipping loops, and they seem very interesting, secure and simple TIB loops to me. I hope you will tie all the possible variations, and then you will find out easy to memorize tying-in-the-bight methods. As the two Scot s TIB bowlines and the two Ampersand bowlines can be transformed the one to the "reverse" of the other (4)(5), I imagine that all those very similar to the Scot s TIB bowlines loops you have tied can also be transformed to the "reverse" of very similar to the Ampersand bowline loops.   

 1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4697
 2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4517.msg30269#msg30269
 3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4695.msg32300#msg32300
 4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4877.msg31925#msg31925
 5. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4877.msg32239#msg32239

P.S. I can not find any major differences, or disadvantages, in any of those three loops. The only thing I have noticed is that, at the first of them, the last curve of the Tail End is more sharp than I would had liked it to be. I always prefer a smooth, fluid path od the Standing Part, all over the knot s nub : a sharp 90-degree turn around one rope diameter, even if it located on its last part, the lightly loaded Tail End, is not what I would had wished.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 05:37:14 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2014, 07:02:38 AM »
   Pictures of the nice recent Lee s TIB bowline, shown at (1) - compare it to the Alpineer s bowline, shown at (2), and to the Scot s TIB bowline(s), shown at (3).

   1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4422.msg32299#msg32299
   2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4697
   3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4517.msg30269#msg30269
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 05:34:26 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2014, 04:45:33 AM »
Hi All,
       Xarax thanks for the comment, I do aware there is  Alpineer s bowline out there. 
       Alpineer s bowline can be tie in one continous motion too. when I have time I will
       make some video for all of these loops.

       Both  Alpineer s bowline and Lee s TIB bowline if we tuck the tail in the middle
       of the nob, they are fine PET loop too.

       謝謝  alan lee,
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 04:46:35 AM by eric22 »

xarax

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2014, 04:57:32 AM »
   Although I had mentioned it in passing, I had not said directly that they are the same eye-knot, the one the "other-handed" form of the other. That was because, on TIB knots, if the simplest, more easy to memorize and remember, tying-in-the-bight method of each one is very different from the other s, in my mind they become more different knots, that they appear !  :) This is a debatable issue, of course... I claim that, if the simplest TIB tying methods of two very similar knots are different, the knots themselves become, in a way, more different than they look !
   So, find the simplest / easiest / quickest way to tie each of them, and then we will compare them, and decide if we will call them with one name, or not...
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 05:02:41 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2014, 09:42:19 AM »
Hi All,
        I have two PET TIB loops here, I think they are fine.

        謝謝 alan lee

xarax

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2014, 12:12:41 PM »
   Their advantage is that they can be tied-in-the-bight very easily, indeed, starting from the simple overhand loop. However, they have a disadvantage I have seen in many similar loops, where we have lines retracing paths of other lines : they can be dressed in more than one ways ( which may already be quite confusing...), and those double lines can be twisted around each other, and be re-arranged inside the knot s nub, by mistake or by accident. That may lead to less stable or less strong forms ( where the nipping loop will encircle two, only, rope diameters, and not three, like it does in the optimum dressing shown in the pictures above ).
   See :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4687.0
   
This is not a knot.

alanleeknots

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Re: Another PET TIB loop
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2015, 01:42:43 AM »
Hi All,   
       Year 2013 I have presented a crossing knot + overhand knot loop, see the first photo and the link here,
       http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4125.60   reply #63, this is a fine simple PET loop,
       one thing I don't like about this loop, it is not that well balance. so I  modify it little bit,
       and it turn out very nice well balance, well secure solid loop, can support heavy load, have a very nice collar
       near the standing part side, very easy to untie after heavy loading. and  quite easy to tie , is a TIB,PET LOOP.
       I like this loop, she is a beautiful loop.
       
        usually before I post my new knot to the forum,  I would do my last run, one more search on the forum
        just to make sure there is no similar knot out there,
        But this time after the exhausted effort (try to figure out what is in those dressed knots) ,
        see this link here.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095.msg24591#msg24591   reply # 10
        I find out Xarax already have presented this loop in this forum,   
       
       Anyway I already spend my valuable time and my best effort, might at well post it and share it with you.

              謝謝  alan lee
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 03:01:31 AM by eric22 »